Mormon Feminism (in GIFs)

By: hawkgrrrl
February 11, 2014

Being a woman in a patriarchal church is bound to have some ups and downs.

photoset (4932) Animated Gif on Giphy

When people think equality and preside are compatible.

dexter (897) Animated Gif on Giphy

Passive aggression is the wind beneath the wings of gender role stereotypes.

funny (14883) Animated Gif on Giphy

The conflict between being a SAHM or a working woman.

up (304) Animated Gif on Giphy

Putting women on a pedestal.  So they can be cheerleaders for the men.

freaks and geeks (770) Animated Gif on Giphy

Myth busted.

season 2 (2387) Animated Gif on Giphy

Men finally having an epiphany about women.

cat (8901) Animated Gif on Giphy

What some Mormons think happens to women who are still unmarried at age 30.

the simpsons (1941) Animated Gif on Giphy

…or age 40.

naruto (1031) Animated Gif on Giphy

Some people’s idea of outreach to women.

thelma and louise (10) Animated Gif on Giphy

How some Mormons think feminism will end.

angry (1618) Animated Gif on Giphy

Some folks think being a feminist means you can’t be a good mother.

pokemon (1626) Animated Gif on Giphy

How some men feel about needing to include more women in decision making.

mother (175) Animated Gif on Giphy

What happened inside the conference center when they saw women queued up for the priesthood session.

movie (10378) Animated Gif on Giphy

How second wave feminists sometimes feel when talking with third wavers.

annoyed (341) Animated Gif on Giphy

What MoFems think when motherhood is equated to priesthood.

sesame street (112) Animated Gif on Giphy

When women wanted to attend the priesthood session in person.

music video (2986) Animated Gif on Giphy

How some men feel when they face the loss of their privilege.

stupid (502) Animated Gif on Giphy

What men think feminists think of them.

buzzfeed (808) Animated Gif on Giphy

What some men think all feminists look like.

women (274) Animated Gif on Giphy

Why women are sometimes less successful than men.

do (480) Animated Gif on Giphy

What some men fear will happen if they try to be feminist allies.

funny (14880) Animated Gif on Giphy

How Mormon women defend their feminist friend when they think she’s gone too far.

mad men (313) Animated Gif on Giphy

Mormon women are often polite, even when it’s pretty clear the men don’t know what they are talking about.

women (274) Animated Gif on Giphy

Mormon dating can mean feeling both judged and leered at.

60s (370) Animated Gif on Giphy

How we sometimes imagine leadership talking about women’s issues.

arrested development (1357) Animated Gif on Giphy

Women can be among the worst critics of feminists.

funny (14880) Animated Gif on Giphy

Advice given to young single feminists.

boss (376) Animated Gif on Giphy

Why jokes about women drivers (and other sexist jokes) fall flat.

women (274) Animated Gif on Giphy

What some members fear is next if women wear pants to church.

television (9952) Animated Gif on Giphy

How some local leaders talk to Mormon feminists.

reactiongifs (4409) Animated Gif on Giphy

What happens to mansplainers in the bloggernacle.

reactiongifs (4409) Animated Gif on Giphy

How Mormon feminists feel when they read ill-informed FB status updates from their friends about topics like swimwear modesty.

In summary . . .

battlestar galactica (134) Animated Gif on Giphy

Mormon Feminists have a plan.

angry (1618) Animated Gif on Giphy

Although Mormon Feminists may not always agree on the best course of action.

Tags:

56 Responses to Mormon Feminism (in GIFs)

  1. Hedgehog on February 11, 2014 at 4:44 AM

    Like that last one!
    My daughter’s been studying ‘Much Ado about Nothing’. She asked she one evening if I thought she was violent for wanting Beatrice to hit Benedict. Which reminded, one time as student, several of us had been to see a film, and I alarmed everyone by blithely announcing my favourite part was when ‘she shot him’.
    In practice I’m not nearly so violent. But I can feel it…

    Like this comment? Thumb up 0

  2. Jon on February 11, 2014 at 6:46 AM

    Feminism is strange because on one post thay are glorifying abortion and and gay marriage but in the next one they are bearing testimony. Doesn’t fit right.

    Like this comment? Thumb up 0

  3. Mormon Heretic on February 11, 2014 at 8:01 AM

    Jon, I don’t know anyone that glorifies abortion. Supporting does not mean glorifying.

    Fan Favorite! Do you like this comment as well? Thumb up 21

  4. Brad on February 11, 2014 at 9:22 AM

    What’s the big deal? If women want the priesthood so they can go sit in a bunch of meetings I say let ‘em have it.

    Like this comment? Thumb up 0

  5. jeff Spector on February 11, 2014 at 9:26 AM

    Right wingers, they have a problem equating pro-choice with pro-abortion. I can’t imagine anyone being pro-abortion. anymore than anyone is pro-amputation or pro-lobotomy. but sometimes it happens.

    Fan Favorite! Do you like this comment as well? Thumb up 13

  6. Jeff Spector on February 11, 2014 at 10:39 AM

    “How some men feel when they face the loss of their privilege”

    I am still trying to figure out what is this privilege that I am supposed to have? To get up at the crack of dawn to sit in a bunch of meetings? To do out in the middle of the night to do stuff?

    Just what?

    Like this comment? Thumb up 2

  7. Ken on February 11, 2014 at 10:47 AM

    Author of this Post

    I found your presentation humorous, but let’s just cut right to the heart of the matter. Women are clearly as capable as men in every sense of the word. However, from a religious perspective, the consequences Adam and Eve faced for partaking of the fruit (who represent ALL fathers and ALL mothers) were clearly spelled out in Moses and Genesis:
     

    To Eve: I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception. In sorrow thou shalt bring forth children, and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

    To Adam: ..cursed shall be the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life.

    From what I see, this fairly well sums up what God intended (in Moses it was God the Father talking) as consequences from the fall and the roles of men and women. My wife worked when we were first married, but has remained at home for the past  few  years. I am humbled and a little embarrased by the thought I am a ‘ruler’ over my  her . It sounds so Nero or Hitlerish, however, from what i understand about the concequences from the fall this seems to be what God intended.

    Like this comment? Thumb up 1

  8. Mormon Heretic on February 11, 2014 at 10:47 AM

    Jeff, some women might want to pass the sacrament (as the young boys do), or give priesthood blessings (even in the middle of the night.) Some women might want to sit in all those meetings as the bishop in order to make better decisions than the current bishop. Do you think they should not have this privilege? If so, why not?

    Fan Favorite! Do you like this comment as well? Thumb up 12

  9. New Iconoclast on February 11, 2014 at 11:29 AM

    Jeff, I’m sure you didn’t intend it this way, but I guess your second question answers your first question. I think it’s kind of patronizing for us to talk about the “burdens of leadership” like those early morning meetings (don’t know about you, but I recall the Primary, YW, and RS presidents being there early, too) as if it’s such a tough thing to hold the priesthood and we’d really rather someone took the weight off our shoulders. Besides, most of us aren’t in bishoprics or stake presidencies, we sleep in with the wife on Sundays, and even help with breakfast – but our opinions still somehow have weight.

    “Well, little lady, y’all wouldn’t want to get up that early and do your hair and nails and get ready for church at that hour, anyway! Just sleep in and we’ll handle it – *sigh* – it’s a trial, but we’ll cope.”

    That is the voice of privilege.

    Fan Favorite! Do you like this comment as well? Thumb up 25

  10. Jessawhy on February 11, 2014 at 11:30 AM

    Freaking awesome. Well done!

    Fan Favorite! Do you like this comment as well? Thumb up 5

  11. Ken on February 11, 2014 at 11:45 AM

    Mormon H./New Icon..

    What is wrong with men and women having different roles? After all, from what I understand this is what God intended.

    Like this comment? Thumb up 1

  12. Moss on February 11, 2014 at 11:50 AM

    Given all the pain and suffering caused by the ‘curses’ after the fall (violence against women and widespread famine at the extreme) it is hard for me to imagine that God wanted it o be this way. It seems much more likely that the ‘curses’ are descriptive- this is just what life is like in a fallen world- and once we get to heaven we are all equal again (like in the temple). And, as Mormons, we believe in trying to build heaven here on earth.

    Fan Favorite! Do you like this comment as well? Thumb up 11

  13. Ken on February 11, 2014 at 12:01 PM

    Moss,

    Just because some misunderstood and misinterrupted and misapplied what God said to Adam and Eve, it doesn’t mean he did’nt say it or mean what HE said.

    Like this comment? Thumb up 0

  14. Moss on February 11, 2014 at 12:34 PM

    Yeah, widespread famine is certainly “misapplied”.

    Like this comment? Thumb up 3

  15. heather y on February 11, 2014 at 12:53 PM

    My understanding is we are a church of continuing revelation. I cannot believe that we are forced into strict divisions of labor within the gospel based on what God told Adam in one conversation, at the beginning of time.

    Fan Favorite! Do you like this comment as well? Thumb up 12

  16. ANON on February 11, 2014 at 1:14 PM

    #7

    We believe mankind will be punished for his own sins and not Adam’s transgression.

    Fan Favorite! Do you like this comment as well? Thumb up 11

  17. New Iconoclast on February 11, 2014 at 1:30 PM

    Ken (#11 and #13), I’m not saying that men and women aren’t different, or that they shouldn’t have different roles. I’m simply saying that to argue, even offhandedly, that giving women the priesthood is a bad idea because they wouldn’t want to get up early for bishopric meetings is a patronizing and dismissive argument.

    I actually don’t know if a male-only priesthood is a divine absolute or a cultural relic. I am inclined to believe the former, but I simply don’t know for sure. What I do know is that my sincere sisters have a lot of genuine pain and anger over the treatment of women in the Church (and in the rest of the world), and it ill-becomes me to take that lightly.

    Fan Favorite! Do you like this comment as well? Thumb up 15

  18. Ken on February 11, 2014 at 1:42 PM

    Moss,

    Not quite sure where you are getting the term famine in any reference to the fall. God intended it to be difficult with “thorns, thistles and noxious weeds” (he did use those terms) in this fallen world.

    Heather/Anon,

    Absolutely, we are punished for our own sins and we continue to have revelation. I am not disputing that, in fact through continuing revelation we are instructed that the words given to Adam and Eve were intended for all God’s children; and this does prove to be true – my wife had enormous difficulty giving birth and providing for one’s family is definitely ‘by thy sweat of thy brow’.I am also not arguing women shouldn’t help in providing for their families or men shouldn’t help raising kids.  Women are enormously valuable in this modern economy at all levels (most probably our next President will be female); and fathers can and should play a vital role at home. I think a lot of women can put themselves in a difficult position if they are not prepared to provide for themselves. I am saying in a religious context it is appropriate for religioug leaders to use these passages of scripture to defend men presiding in the home and at church.

    Like this comment? Thumb up 1

  19. hawkgrrrl on February 11, 2014 at 1:55 PM

    Ken: What’s wrong with men & women having different roles is when those individual men & women have hopes and dreams that are limited by strict enforcement of those roles. Men & women have more in common with each other than gender divisions suggest. For an excellent post on this topic see: http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2014/01/guest-post-the-anthropology-of-providing-and-nurturing/

    Also, bear in mind that God didn’t write the Bible, and the point of Bible stories isn’t that they are a literal history. They should generate discussion, not end it.

    Fan Favorite! Do you like this comment as well? Thumb up 14

  20. Jeff Spector on February 11, 2014 at 2:19 PM

    “I think it’s kind of patronizing for us to talk about the “burdens of leadership” like those early morning meetings (don’t know about you, but I recall the Primary, YW, and RS presidents being there early, too) as if it’s such a tough thing to hold the priesthood and we’d really rather someone took the weight off our shoulders”

    I said nothing of the burden of leadership because I am not the only one who does it. An most certainly our Relief Society, Young Women and Primary Presidents do the same thing. They, like me, feel the privilege of being able to serve the Lord through our callings,

    That’s the privilege I see and we all have that opportunity exclusive of our gender.

    Like this comment? Thumb up 0

  21. Ken on February 11, 2014 at 2:21 PM

    Hawkgirl ( I see you are the author):

    Please see my last comment to hearther/anon. I would add we are doing a project for an international corporation and the woman running the show is perhaps the most effective CEO I have run across. She is LDS (regular temple goer) and her husband works for her.

    My comments were largely directed to roles within the church and home. And the consequences of the fall are discussed in the pearl of great price and temple so it is more than a misinterrupted or mistranslated comment in the bible.

    Like this comment? Thumb up 1

  22. VNMarshall on February 11, 2014 at 2:43 PM

    Ken, I believe that men will be punished for their own sins and not for Adam’s transgression. Likewise I believe that women will be punished for their own sins and not for Eve’s transgression. Isn’t it possible that the curse given to Adam and Eve in Genesis has been mistranslated (over thousands of years and possibly as many translations/transliterations)? I also believe the Bible to be the word of God, but only as far as it is translated correctly. Genesis has been used to justify thousands of years of misogyny. I do not worship a misogynist God, and if your God is misogynist, then I reject him. Is it not possible that those particular verses in Genesis have been warped, misunderstood, mistranslated, and abused at the hands of misogynist cultures?

    Fan Favorite! Do you like this comment as well? Thumb up 11

  23. VNMarshall on February 11, 2014 at 2:46 PM

    Isn’t it possible that the verses are identical in the Pearl of Great Price and in the temple because Joseph’s translation process relied on the King James Bible (with all its flaws, errors, and particular stylizations)?

    Fan Favorite! Do you like this comment as well? Thumb up 7

  24. Ken on February 11, 2014 at 2:56 PM

    #23

    No, I dont think it was copied from the bible.

    Like this comment? Thumb up 0

  25. Ken on February 11, 2014 at 3:01 PM

    VN,

    Like Heather you are confusing two concepts. The 2nd article of faith correctly teaches we will be responsible for our own actions and not someone else’s.

    The consequences of the fall apply to all mankind.

    Like this comment? Thumb up 0

  26. Sarah Braudaway-Clark on February 11, 2014 at 3:04 PM

    What I find interesting about the meme taken from “Mary Poppins” is that the idea that men as a group are stupid is what is often taught IN CHURCH! Modesty is taught as if men can’t control their thoughts in the face of arbitrarily defined immodesty. The male only priesthood is justified because men “need” it in order to be good. (We women are already saintly/spiritual/better because of our superhero wombs.) If someone wants to see anti-male rhetoric, it’s just as far as the closest ward or stake building.

    Fan Favorite! Do you like this comment as well? Thumb up 19

  27. Sarah Braudaway-Clark on February 11, 2014 at 3:12 PM

    Ken, you’re working really hard to convince people that the current gender role teachings came down directly from God, have always been this way, and always will be based on a literal interpretation of a literal Eden and literal first parents. I believe our creation story is completely symbolic, especially considering the symbolic nature of Hebrew writings and story telling, so your interpretation does nothing for me and won’t. It makes much more sense to me on both a logical AND a spiritual level (especially when juxtaposed with the atonement and the plan of salvation) that misogynistic gender rules came about because of the failings of human beings and the story was written to reinforce those. God allows it because agency is a universal law he won’t touch, not because he actually punished all women for eternity because his first daughter made the right choice in a Catch 22 situation between opposing commandments and choose knowledge (and procreation).

    Fan Favorite! Do you like this comment as well? Thumb up 15

  28. Ken on February 11, 2014 at 3:32 PM

    Sarah,

    And this is why we have modern revelation and Temples to teach us the correct way. I believe they have and yes I do believe in the creation, the fall and the atonement as described in the Bible. I’m sorry you don’t see it that way.

    Like this comment? Thumb up 2

  29. Ken on February 11, 2014 at 3:59 PM

    Side Note Help: wordpress keeps uploading an older picture of me instead of the golf pic. Has anyone dealt with this glitch? Email kenstuart1305 at gmail dot com

    Like this comment? Thumb up 0

  30. Handlewithcare on February 11, 2014 at 4:02 PM

    Hi Ken-what does preside mean?

    I’ve been married thirty years and we’ve never experienced a situation where either of us have had to preside. I have a testimony that working side by side as equals is a more excellent way.
    Nothing stops us transcending our culture or religious teachings but ourselves.

    Fan Favorite! Do you like this comment as well? Thumb up 11

  31. Moss on February 11, 2014 at 4:13 PM

    Ken:

    “Not quite sure where you are getting the term famine in any reference to the fall. God intended it to be difficult with “thorns, thistles and noxious weeds” (he did use those terms) in this fallen world.”

    In a post up thread you mention that the ground is cursed for Adam’s sake. So- what does that look like? In Eden, they didn’t have to till the ground, food was plentiful but now in the fallen world they have to work for it and they are at the mercy of the elements- in the extreme, famine is a result of this curse. In the Los Angeles Temple you literally go from the lush Garden room into the desert of the Lone and Dreary World (it actually looks a lot like Southern Utah).

    So I have to wonder- is the Lone and Dreary World the way God wants it to be? Or is it just the consequences of living in a fallen world?

    Like this comment? Thumb up 0

  32. Ken on February 11, 2014 at 4:16 PM

    A bishop presides with consultation from counselors. A relief society president presides with consultation from counselors under the direction of the Bishop. Someone has to make the final decision. I do agree with Sarah that men and women use the false teaching that men were given the priesthood to make them equal with women. I have always disliked that argument. Men were given the priesthood to preside.

    Like this comment? Thumb up 0

  33. Ken on February 11, 2014 at 4:18 PM

    @31

    I believe he did intend for us to live in a fallen world. That is part of the test.

    Like this comment? Thumb up 0

  34. Jon on February 11, 2014 at 4:29 PM

    MH you support it you glorify it

    Like this comment? Thumb up 0

  35. Jon on February 11, 2014 at 4:33 PM

    Women support things like abortion gay marriage goddess worship none of which the brethren in Salt Lake support if we had female apostles they would be clamoring for all these evil things

    Like this comment? Thumb up 0

  36. Ana on February 11, 2014 at 5:51 PM

    Jon, if the Church ended up with female apostles, then according to Mormon theology, it would be because they were called of God to lead. And your generalization of the entire movement is entirely inaccurate and quite sexist. You are one of those people whose views we are struggling against, and not because we are “clamoring for all these evil things.”

    Fan Favorite! Do you like this comment as well? Thumb up 5

  37. Mormon Heretic on February 11, 2014 at 5:52 PM

    Jon, you’re white so you’re a Nazi. (see how stupid that kind of reasoning is?)

    Ken, go to http://en.gravatar.com/ , sign in, and you can change your picture there.

    Like this comment? Thumb up 2

  38. rah on February 11, 2014 at 6:01 PM

    Every time something goes up Mofem on Wheat and Tares it seems to demonstrate the desperate need for mormon feminism. Wide-eyed disbelief that women could possibly object that a set of gender-defined roles which lead to systematic exclusion from decision rights, representation in governance, and economic dependency as coming from a God who loves them equally and sees their potential as equal. Complete refusal to consider that possibly couldn’t at all be philosophies of men or long-inherited cultural bias (you know like the type we finally admitted led to the exclusions of blacks from equal rights and privileges) driving current structure and practice. You know because God just wants it this way and surely he and she would just tell us like he did for race when BY decided the ban was a good idea and all the other leaders decided we needed a nice, complicated doctrine to justify it.

    For me I don’t think I need prophetic permission to look at the state of women in the world or in our church and open up my imagination to the idea that God might want it to be different. Everything from reoccuring, gendered, ecclesiastical abuse in the church where women have no official protection or voice from their own gender. Sexual culture leading to relatively high rates of sexual dysfunction for women. Modesty discourse for women defined by men and often emphasizing men’s “protection”. Women in our most culturally dominated corner of Zion dropping out of college at rates 3 times higher than men due to lack of family and social support. Disciplinary councils with no female gender representation. Discouraged, even banned ability for women to receive ecclesiastical counseling and confession from their own gender for sexual sins. Inability after years and years to receive any significant revelation on the divine feminine. Lack of clarity regarding polygamy and its relationship to women’s divine destiny. Sealing policies that allow men to be sealed to more than one wife, without the other wife’s consent. Systematic resource allocations preferrencing our young men over young women and our young boys over young girls. Not even allowing women to pray in our general conferences for decades upon decades. Intermittent bans of women praying in sacrament meeting. Stripping women of self-determined governance of their own organization. Taking away their previously bestowed rights to bless each other in temples. Taking a financially independent women’s organization stripping it of their assets and then making it financially dependent. Call me crazy but I think we can do better. I think there is ample evidence everywhere we look is that most these things won’t get better until we incorporate women more fully within our church governance structure.

    Its not my place to say what that should look like, but I think it is my place as a saint to reject the idea that “God wants it this way, because that is the way it is”. I tend to believe based on my reading of scripture and church history that God won’t reveal a course of action to us as a people until we, as a people, can at very least imagine the alternative and see it is both plausible and more desirable than the status quo.

    The GIFs were awesome by the way!

    Fan Favorite! Do you like this comment as well? Thumb up 19

  39. melodynew on February 11, 2014 at 7:20 PM

    I love you for this, hawkgrrrl. The doomed feminist ally was my favorite.

    Fan Favorite! Do you like this comment as well? Thumb up 4

  40. brjones on February 11, 2014 at 7:44 PM

    MH, I think it’s over the top to compare Jon’s comments to Nazism. I think fascism is probably more appropriate.

    Like this comment? Thumb up 2

  41. Stephen R. Marsh on February 11, 2014 at 7:58 PM

    “- is the Lone and Dreary World the way God wants it to be? Or is it just the consequences of living in a fallen world?”

    So much of the way things are is because the world is imperfect, not because it is the way things should be. It is the way things should not be and what we should strive to overcome.

    Fan Favorite! Do you like this comment as well? Thumb up 4

  42. Stephen R. Marsh on February 11, 2014 at 7:59 PM

    ” Taking a financially independent women’s organization stripping it of their assets and then making it financially dependent.” You mean the Elders Quorums which used to have dues and their own fund raising and budgets and revenue streams and all?

    Like this comment? Thumb up 2

  43. IDIAT on February 12, 2014 at 5:07 AM

    Curious to hear a female take on modesty. Suppose your husband is having an hour long business lunch with the girl in the dating video where she is trying to sell him in an idea. Is her choice of low cut shirt happenstance, purposeful, or what? You would expect husband to keep his eyes off her chest, but would you appreciate her choice of clothes? I’ve read women say we shouldn’t judge her clothing choice. Is it really no big deal deal?

    Like this comment? Thumb up 0

  44. hawkgrrrl on February 12, 2014 at 8:29 AM

    IDIAT: If he’s leering, he’s the one in the wrong. If company dress codes don’t prohibit it, she can wear whatever she wants within that code. He has to take responsibility for his own reactions because he is loyal to his marriage. Men in Muslim countries also leer at women who are fully covered up. Emotional affairs are more damaging than ones that are just for sex. It all boils down to marital fidelity. Cleavage-woman is not in the marriage and not under an obligation.

    I posted at length about it here: http://bycommonconsent.com/2013/06/17/byus-honor-code-hostile-environment-sexual-harassment/

    Women often do harshly judge other women, but usually that’s because they feel threatened or they resent their own choices and are jealous of the woman with more freedom. So the answer to your question, IMO, depends on how secure the woman is in her marriage and with her choices.

    Fan Favorite! Do you like this comment as well? Thumb up 5

  45. brjones on February 12, 2014 at 8:37 AM

    I agree with Hawk on this issue. The woman in that scenario has absolutely zero responsibility with respect to that man’s behavior.

    Like this comment? Thumb up 1

  46. New Iconoclast on February 12, 2014 at 8:46 AM

    IDIAT: I’m not going to leer. I am going to notice, and I’m responsible if I let that distract me. I’m an adult, not a 3-year-old. I am a fool if her clothing influences my decision.

    (Many men are fools, but that’s hardly the woman’s fault, is it? Do you dress well for a job interview?)

    Hawk hits the nail right on the head. In particular, the BYU honor code as it relates to dress standards, especially the Komsomolets rat-out-your-neighbor features, is a disgrace and an insult to the principle of agency.

    Fan Favorite! Do you like this comment as well? Thumb up 4

  47. IDIAT on February 12, 2014 at 9:30 AM

    Hawk – here’s my struggle with the position that “we’re all responsible for our own thoughts.” Carried to a logical conclusion, then we shouldn’t have any constraints on public nudity whatsoever, because, as you point out, we’re responsible for our own thoughts. Yet, we do have a general notion of what’s appropriate written into our laws. I understand the theory of what’s being said, just don’t know if it’s pragmatic. My mother, sisters, daughters and wife all look in the mirror before they leave the house to see how they look. They would be the first to admit to the occasional accentuation of their feminine features (within standard garment wearing Mormon standards, of course), and their intent is to attract some kind of notice. They are communicating (or at least trying to communicate) something. One female advice columnist quipped “We all like eye candy. The question is how much the candy is unwrapped.” Anyway, just curious to get a woman’s take.

    Like this comment? Thumb up 0

  48. Jon on February 12, 2014 at 10:02 AM

    If women were ordained, the church would look like the Unitarian Universalists who are more than fifty percent female clergy and no surprise here they support abortion gay marriage and other societal ills

    Like this comment? Thumb up 0

  49. Daniel Smith on February 12, 2014 at 10:55 AM

    The ways that traditionalists interpret the judgements of God during the expulsion from the garden are the perfect illustration of male privilege. There is nothing in the text that would indicate the pronouncements to Adam and Eve should be interpreted differently, but universally those against Adam are treated as things to mitigate if at all possible while those against Eve are reinforced at every possible turn.

    Fan Favorite! Do you like this comment as well? Thumb up 4

  50. Ray on February 12, 2014 at 11:24 AM

    Ken, have you read, carefully, the section in the Proclamation to the World that describes the Church’s *current” stance on gender roles within marriage – or have you, like so many other members, glossed over that section by assuming it says exactly what you were taught in your formative years, simply because it uses much of the traditional terminology in some places?

    The following is a close, tight reading [with commentary, to make an important point] of the actual words:

    “In **these** sacred responsibilities [all the responsibilities listed previously in the paragraph, importantly without disclaimers or exceptions], fathers and mothers are **obligated** [strong word choice] to **help one another** [not insist that the other perform the traditional responsibilities alone] as **equal partners** [which means "preside in the home" is being defined very differently than it was in the past and, in practical terms, is merely honorific in the best marriages]. Disability, death, **or other circumstances** [again, no qualifications or limitations in this wording] may necessitate **individual adaptation** [change to the traditional norm initiated by the spouses themselves with no need to seek permission from anyone else].”

    There absolutely is room in this statement for the traditional allocation of parental responsibilities (and I believe nearly all of the top leadership still believes that is the ideal, where possible), but there is NO room in it for insisting that those responsibilities are the sole domain of either spouse, ordained by God to be exclusive and definitional. If a man insists that he must provide and his wife must nurture by divine command simply because of their biological sex difference (and neither is obligated or excused in participating in the other spouse’s domain), for example, that man is acting in opposition to the Church’s stated position in the Proclamation. If a man refuses to consider doing dishes or changing a diaper or reading to his children, for example, simply because he is the man and those tasks are not part of his responsibilities – or if a woman refuses to consider working for compensation outside the home simply because she is the woman and that assignment is not part of her responsibilities – in that situation each of the individuals is not in line with the Church’s current counsel regarding marriage. The published standard no longer is about each person individually and separately; it not is about the couple as one, understanding the overall responsibilities of parenthood and figuring out how to make it work so their own marriage can provide what it is supposed to provide – together, helping each other, being equal partners.

    Too many members don’t understand, but this isn’t the LDS Church of my youth and early adulthood, and members who have criticized other members who have struggled with some areas of counsel in the past are facing the reality that they are the ones now who often are not accepting what the current global leadership is saying and publishing. The Proclamation doesn’t say what Pres. Benson once said. It’s time traditionalist members let go of his former counsel and embrace what is quoted above.

    As long as a couple is sharing parental responsibilities by helping each other as equal partners, their own individual adaptation of the traditional roles is in line with the current, published standard – and everyone else needs to get out of their home and stop judging them for their righteous exercise of agency – no matter how they structure their marriage differently than anyone else would structure theirs.

    Fan Favorite! Do you like this comment as well? Thumb up 8

  51. Ray on February 12, 2014 at 11:28 AM

    “it now is about the couple as one” – Sorry for the confusion that might be caused by that typo.

    Like this comment? Thumb up 0

  52. Jeff Spector on February 12, 2014 at 11:39 AM

    ” Stripping women of self-determined governance of their own organization. …Taking a financially independent women’s organization stripping it of their assets and then making it financially dependent.”

    A complete fallacy, was never actually true. The Relief Society was always under priesthood supervision and authority.

    Like this comment? Thumb up 0

  53. Douglas on February 12, 2014 at 2:03 PM

    The HawkChick, once again, submits a post that quickly generates a “Scrooge McDuck’s Bank” worth of “two cents worth”…. good snarky pics, some I’d agree with, some not, but all in good humor (or rumor). Bit of tech advice…this page kept crashing on my Android device, but it holds up in Windows. Just something for the web admin to look at.

    Contrary to what some may think, reactionaries and self-styled ‘feminists’, Feminism and the Gospel are NOT necessarily at odds. In it’s simplest form, Feminism would be women working collectively as a “sisterhood” to advance their common causes as their gender sees and experiences it, and I give not a ‘commie crapola’ which wave of feminism it is (and don’t have the knowledge to even guess). It could be said that the LDS Relief Society IS such an organization, or at least is thus intended. I’m fairly certainly that the Celestial Kingdom isn’t a ‘sausage fest’, though Rev 8:1 implies that there was at least a half hour period as witnessed by the Apostle John where it was or will be. It’s certain that our Lord, though being a perfect Man, is still a Man, and in His wisdom would not presume to dole out counsel to all His earthly sisters save He’d gotten input from His Eternal Companion(s) – as to number and/or identit(ies), can only speculate.

    Though I won’t say that every action of the Church or its auxillaries, RS included, have been stone-cold perfect, and I’ve more confidence in the abilties of the abilities and track record of the dear sisters that have served in General positions than their equivalent brethren, I’m certain that it all operates with the best interests of females in the Church, or of the World in general, in mind.

    HawkChick, I get it. You seem to be frustrated somehow in that you seem to feel that your talents, or those of women who are likewise professionals and/or highly educated, as you esteem yourself, are being disregarded due to sexism, whether as part of official policy or cultural inertia. A sufficient answer is a bit above my pay grade. I can only say that we brethren are continually counselled that being eligible for the Priesthood does not confer some superiority upon the male gender, nor was it bestowed to “compensate” for otherwise failings. It is b/c the Lord wants His affairs administered via a patriarchy, not the opposite or some matter that disregards the Eternal family, as best as I can figure it. I do hope that whatever Church leaders you work with can seek inspiration that will best utilize your talents. Again, it’s not only sisters that are often frustrated with their “inspired” leaders! Case in point: A bishop that I had several years ago, who I’ve griped about in posts on this forum in times past, had the nerve to tell our SP that he thought I was gay b/c I like to cook (never mind my particular dietary needs and none of my first two wives or my g/f(s) ever showed any particular skill in the kitchen) and I spent a lot of time working in my garden. Well, excuuuuse me, it might have been the demands of funding alimony payments, kids in college, and a mortgage that shelved the contracting out of grounds maintenance at Chez Douglas! So if I’m working with “Floweres and (stuff)” (Thank you, Bubba Smith, from “Police Academy”) in my front yard, it’s b/c I have do it in-house and it’s all the ‘entertainment’ (besides the Giants and 49ers on cable) that I could afford, not b/c I’m living down to some gender mis-sterotyping! Does it seem incredulous that one’s “maniliness” is questioned b/c he’s observed doing what someone from the “old school” perceives as “women’s work”? As I’ve said ad naseam, a by-product of governing the Church from the male portion of the “Hew-Mon” race.

    This is not even that recent an issue, as Bugs Bunny reluctantly admitted in “Hold the Lion” (1941)…interesting that then there was a “Frau Bugs”, had Elmer “Fwiccassied” her by 1996 (“Space Jam”) when Bugs was trying to impress Lola Bunny, or is Bugs just a playa, or did he do fifty years of Looney Tunes to fund alimony payments?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqsdO1knSTk

    I’m sure that if someday the PH is granted to women, it’ll be b/c it’s what the Lord wants, and He doesn’t owe an explanation. Contrary to what Jon insinuated, I’m observed that if anything active LDS woman tend to be more socially conservative than even the hidebound brethren, so I’m sure if the Lord wants them to assume the mantle, they will do His will. However, despite the sensitivities of a small but very vocal group of self-styled LDS “Feminists”, let’s not let the tail wag the dog. We ALL have to answer to the same Heavenly Father, and He (and I’m sure His companio She) ain’t playing favorites.

    Like this comment? Thumb up 1

  54. hawkgrrrl on February 12, 2014 at 2:47 PM

    Douglas: “LDS woman tend to be more socially conservative than even the hidebound brethren” With this caveat: specifically those women who are beneficiaries of sexist roles. I can assure you that the majority of other women in the church who are not buying the romantic paternalism are less socially conservative as well (in case you need a primer in that patina, it goes like this: “Women are incredible!,” women are more spiritual, they deserve to be taken care of so they can stay home with the kids, they deserve a righteous RM priesthood holder just for being women, they are morally superior but of course only in that hand that rocks the cradle way, we don’t actually have to listen to them on moral issues).

    And ultimately, Mormons are pragmatists. That’s why change comes in due time.

    Fan Favorite! Do you like this comment as well? Thumb up 4

  55. Laura on February 12, 2014 at 9:25 PM

    These are awesome. Thanks!

    Like this comment? Thumb up 2

  56. Moss on February 13, 2014 at 8:21 PM

    Stephen R Marsh- thank you! That was the exact point I was trying to make. The results of the fall, cursings, expulsion and all, are just the condidtions of life in the fallen world. That doesn’t mean that is the way God wants us to live.

    I wish I could like comment #49 a billion times.

    Like this comment? Thumb up 0

Leave a Reply

Subscribe without commenting

Archives

%d bloggers like this: