In the wake of Kate’s excommunication, and in light of the Newsroom’s recent statement [1], I thought I’d help out my fellow bloggers with some suggestions of approved topics for future posts:
- What is your favorite color?
- How glad are you when Daddy comes home?
- Which of the twelve apostles is tallest?
- Will our pets live with us in the celestial kingdom?
- Is Jesus a member of the tea party or just Republican?
- Utes or Cougars?
- Shredded or cubed hash browns in funeral potatoes?
- Is it OK to pump gas on Sunday if you pay by credit card?
- iPad scriptures vs. paper: which do you prefer?
- Just how bad has the world gotten? Really bad or really really bad?
What other safe topics do you suggest?
Discuss.
________________________________________________
[1] “we want everyone to feel welcome, safe and valued, and of course, there is room to ask questions. But how we ask is just as important as what we ask. We should not try to dictate to God what is right for His Church.”
Wheat & Tares 
• How far away in light years is Kolob?
• Is it in this galaxy or galaxy cluster?
•What are the most manageable or practice ways to hie [to Kolob] with children in tow?
That’s a lot of “are we there yets.”
I was thinking about starting my own LDS blog (only maybe – well most likely not in reality), but now I worry about this:
Practical not practice. Practical. I dislike how phones think they are smarter than us. In my case it is, but still …
Why do most modern copies of the BofM have blue covers?
Enjoyed the picture forgetting.
So, am I allowed to comment on the culture thing for #5,#6,#7, or is designation of something as culture not gospel now taboo… Meanwhile, I’ve long wondered, what are funeral potatoes, green jello salad etc…? (ducks for cover) Query on #8 this is a pay at pump use of credit card right?
Zion Approved Recipes (you can make a start with the potatoes…)
Asking questions the right way
Slaying Goliath in 10 easy steps
A mountain, a temple or a temple on a mountain?
Where’s Mt. Zion?
The proper care and feeding of animals: ark edition
Bee-keeping at sea: Jaredite edition
Overland with fish: Jaredite edition
Scriptural uses of rocks and stones.
You’re welcome to start your own church if you don’ t like ours.
Joseph Smith: “it feels so good not to be tramelled”
I don’t think Utes or Cougars is an approved topic–too much contention. That’s why they won’t even play in football this year.
OW: “many have been supportive in these discussions, others have not. Ordain Women will continue.” will continue, will continue, will continue
You’re welcome to have differing opinions about which apostle is tallest, but do not attempt to persuade others to your beliefs. Please work through your apostolic height issues using the proper channels.
Isn’t E Perry the tallest?
“I don’t think Utes or Cougars is an approved topic–too much contention. That’s why they won’t even play in football this year”
It’s approved if you choose the cougars, otherwise you could be guilty of speaking ill of the lords annointed.
Enough with the self pity. The Bloggernacle should, with a few exceptions, remain open for business. Allow me to hit the reset button.
I believe that women should be allowed to serve as witnesses of sealing ordinances. If, as we are told, and as is demonstrated in initiatory and endowment ceremonies, sisters have priesthood authority in the temple, then that authority should extend to the sealing room. Every sealing ordinance should be witnessed by one man and one woman.
Having stated that belief in this forum, I am now going to leave it to other participants to debate. I am not going to write letters to the Brethren. I am not going to engage in any acts of civil disobedience. I am not going to complain to the press. If anybody feels that I am in apostasy, they may contact my Stake President–I live in the Centreville Virginia Stake. We’ll see how it goes.
For the most part its not what you talk about, its how you talk about it. Why those who consider themselves of such high intelligence can’t understand that is baffling. If there was a non-snarky discussion about approved ways to discuss difficult topics, then something of significance might get accomplished.
Brother Jake Presents: Correlation Shut up and Obey!
What happened is not a result of unapproved posts — it has much to do with public advocacy of something that the church sees as not doctrinal, as well as an effort to proselyte that message via discussions (deliberately analogous to missionary discussions).
It is disingenuous to snark about approved topics, when that has little to do with the controversy at hand. I’m sure it feels good, though.
Jettboy: “For the most part its not what you talk about, its how you talk about it.” How you talk about it is always tough to pin down, particularly so when it’s entirely a matter of local leaders’ discretion (read: opinion) whether your “how” is suitable or not. You’ve also caveated “for the most part.” If it’s so crystal clear what’s allowed and what’s not, then what are the other parts you haven’t named but you’ve alluded to?
Jared: “You’re welcome to start your own church if you don’ t like ours.” Funny, that’s not what Jesus said, but it hasn’t stopped you.
anajay: “It is disingenuous to snark about approved topics, when that has little to do with the controversy at hand. I’m sure it feels good, though.” It beats the alternative. And there’s plenty of disingenuous to go around.
Glen Beck: Great Mormon or Greatest Mormon?
h/t Colbert
hawkgrrrl, I would love an honest appraisal of the situation. This debate seems to be continually reframed as people being punished for thinking and expressing unapproved thoughts. However, KK has organized a movement meant to advance a point of view that the leadership has determined is in contradiction to current revelation. She has discussions to distribute as starting points.
In my *personal* experience, this has caused contention, hurt feelings, and offense among women in my own ward. The seeds of contention are sown, and no Spirit dwells in the discussions I’ve witnessed so far.
She was asked to stop, and she refused. She was asked to appear before a church court and explain her side, and she refused. She feigned inability to appear, when offers of help were extended by many.
I try to be fair-minded about things, and have participated in this community for years. I am pretty liberal of mind as far as these things go, but I cannot pretend — sad, though I am that she was excommunicated — that this is all a result of discussing unapproved topics. It simply is not the case, and pretending it is, if not dishonest, at least disingenuous.
Food Storage: Heavier on Firearms or Ammo?
From the full letter from Kate’s bishop: “The diffrculty, Sister Kelly, is not that you say you have questions or even that you believe that women should receive the priesthood. The problem is that you have persisted in an aggressive effort to persuade other Church members to your point of view and that your course of action has threatened to erode the faith of others. You are entitled to your views, but you are not entitled to promote them and proselyte others to them while remaining in full fellowship in the Church” Here’s where the gray areas are:
– what constitutes an “aggressive effort”? Is it the manner of the effort or merely its persistence? What is an effort and what is aggressive? Is making impassioned comments in Gospel Doctrine class an “aggressive effort” if it’s a minority opinion that you express more than one time?
– how do we determine when something “threatens to erode” the faith of others? Can’t this describe just about everything we do? Some talks in GC have eroded my faith. Others have built it up. Does it mean that those not in leadership can never say anything unpopular that those in leadership don’t like or find contradictory to their views?
– what does it mean to “promote” your ideas? Expressing your ideas at all could be seen as “promoting” them.
– what constitutes “proselyting others” to your views? Isn’t blogging or commenting in Gospel Doctrine a way to share your views at least in part hoping that some others will also agree?
The link to the pdf is here: http://www.deseretnews.com/media/pdf/1365030.pdf
Worth a read. As always, I appreciate the conciliatory tone of these letters. Courtesy is important when you have damned someone. But there is a lot of weasel room in the description of her offense, too, and that’s disconcerting.
anajay: “In my *personal* experience, this has caused contention, hurt feelings, and offense among women in my own ward. The seeds of contention are sown, and no Spirit dwells in the discussions I’ve witnessed so far.” Interesting. This topic, OW, female ordination, has not been a topic of discussion even one time in my ward. We have been focused on the gospel, and it’s not in the lesson materials. So why is it being raised in your ward? Is that because there are some who fear its discussion so much that they feel it necessary to rail on others for their minority opinions? I’m asking that in earnest. Do we value sameness of thought so much that any minority viewpoint causes division? That’s an indictment of the congregation of Mormonism.
anajay you are right that it is bad rhetoric to run around saying KK was exed for “asking questions”. It was for so much more than that.
Listen, she started a conversation that was (many, many) decades too late and decades too early. Yes, I think she made mistakes. Yes, I think the Church Leadership made mistakes. This was the worst chess match I’ve ever watched, and I’ve watched a lot of bad chess at family reunions. I’m angry at Kate. I’m angry at my Church. This is the most easily avoidable situation ever – and it’s disingenuous for BOTH sides to keep pointing the fingers one way. But since history is written by the victor, guess which story gets told?
The brethren set themselves up as unapproachable, unaskable and uncorrectable and they elevate promotion of faith above truth which gets spin and trashed in the process. This invites and allows error, a lot of error. The emperor wares no clothes! Revelation has been watered down to inspiration so where is the doctrine to support this self serving catch-22 censorship and push back?
Just How *Much* Like Angels are The Women in the Church?
How Tall Do You Like Your Pedestal?
What Cup Size Will Your Boob Job Be?
What is the Proper Ratio of Side Dish / Desserts to add to the RS Sign Up Sheet?
“It beats the alternative. And there’s plenty of disingenuous to go around.”
To the extent that this controversy has forced everyone to take sides, those who’ve taken KK’s side have responded — in my experience — with snark, deflection, and reframing.
I have yet to see anyone post a good defense of KK’s actual actions. I honestly would like a liberal-minded, yet faithful, defense of, specifically, the public advocacy and act of promoting proselyting via organized discussions of the female ordination. Because I can’t think of one.
KK made no effort at de-escalation. I can’t square this circle in my mind that her leaders should let her continue in defiance of their clear requests to stop over a period of several months.
I’ve asked elsewhere in highly-trafficked blogs, and still there is no real answer, just more snark, anger, and righteous indignation.
Brother Otterson, are you really there?
And do you read and forward every blogger’s care?
Some say that Salt Lake is far away…
But I feel it near me when I stray (away from approved dialogue)…
KK made no effort at de-escalation. Well, perhaps that’s because she intends to escalate.
Most of this comes from the fact that the other side made no effort at de-escalation. Not ONE attempt at reconciliation or dialog. Her grammatical imperative, from the start before any “actions”, made her “Other” to them. Then people say “oh we can meet with every joe shmoe that starts a group. . . . ” Well hot damn you have enough time to meet with Frozen Gay Agenda lady and lick her boots and say how everything she’s doing is SO AMAZING.
I’m pissed because that’s the face of women my church wants. I’m not OW but I refuse to believe that MWS et al will spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ in openness and love.
Kate is a stumbling block? “She who must not be named” is setting us back years – and it WILL cost us. And “she who must not be named” is shoved in my face of who I should try to be like.
So excuse my righteous indignation.
How Big Is My File in the “Strengthening the Members” Committee?
What makes the church right in this? Authority? Authority for what? To throw out a woman for daring to challenge the status quo? And the best we have to defend the status quo is Oak’s brief? Is there something wrong with asking God?
The church turned this into hard ball.
Much smaller than mine Kristine A.
Give me time, I’ve only been at this for 9 months 🙂
“So why is it being raised in your ward? Is that because there are some who fear its discussion so much that they feel it necessary to rail on others for their minority opinions? I’m asking that in earnest.”
It has nothing to do with fear. My ward is beset with temporal challenges, and most of us couldn’t care less about each other’s views of female ordination. Our RS is a ghost town most Sundays as everyone is serving somewhere. I feel sorry for whomever is called to teach the 5 people sitting in there.
One sister in our ward had many doubts about the church, but was active. She became an active member of OW, in the sense that she wanted to host discussions of female ordination. Several of us (a group of 8 or so women) had reached out in an effort of friendship and fellowship, but preferring not to participate in such a discussion.
It isn’t fear; in some cases it is genuine disinterest, in others, discomfort, and in my case, a desire to keep things between me and Lord. Because of this, the sister has opted out of church for the time being, leaving sisters to feel hurt that they didn’t do enough to show friendship. Some of us feel as though she has disengaged in anger because she was unable to promote a true movement within our ward. Her comments to some (and on Facebook) indicate as much. I can’t be entirely sure, but there are a lot of hurt feelings and heartache because of what has happened. Many are simply sad to see her and her family disengage, but I have never heard anyone express anything except sadness and hope that they’ll change their minds.
Anajay, I’ve observed that often our reactions to others are more a reflection of us than the person making the comment. If you haven’t seen any positive defenses of Kate Kelly’s side, maybe you aren’t looking hard enough. I’ve seen snark, but I’ve also seen plenty of logic, gentle persuasion, love, and even kindness and understanding in the face of disagreement.
On another note, to respond to the original post… I don’t know about talking about animals in heaven. That seems pretty radical. 😛
“Do we value sameness of thought so much that any minority viewpoint causes division? That’s an indictment of the congregation of Mormonism.”
And no. This has not been my experience in the last three wards in which I’ve lived. I’ve heard many minority viewpoints, in class and socially.
I find that those in liberal bloggernacle world are quick to build a narrative of faithful questioning among a mass of automatons. My experience has been that there is remarkable diversity in my area, and most people just want to get along and keep everything in the ward afloat.
This idea that there is some rigid enforcement of ideas and that thoughtcrime is punished has not been my experience, well, pretty much ever. Because I express non-traditional thought all the time. Maybe I’m just super lucky. But sometimes I wonder if the “other side,” as it were, takes the actions and expressions of the few and extrapolate them to the many.
Anajay I’ve been in many wards and had your experience. I suppose I come to the bloggernacle more often and vent when I live in . . . say, REXBURG. I have stories for you. In my heart I want to go back to my other wards – but if you live in stifling cultural conformity (yes it’s here) let me vent for heck’s sake. Let. Me. Vent.
anajay,
People on both sides have turned this into a vitriolic false dichotomy.
In a sense, IMHO both the LDS Church and KK are “right.”
The LDS Church is correct in that the vast majority of members, both men and women, are unprepared for women to receive the priesthood even if hypothetically the Almighty is ready to grant this blessing. (I am too ignorant to know His will.)
The LDS church is correct in disciplining KK because she was upsetting the masses of “those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.” (Borrowed from Theodore Roosevelt.)
KK is correct in that she is trying to enlarge our awareness and vision of the potential for all of us to rise to a higher spiritual plane. Alas, her timing is wrong and her methods too abrupt.
The silver lining in the cloud, if there is one, is that Elder Oaks gave a conference talk explaining how women do function in the priesthood. Also, Sister Oscarson gave a much-needed message on compassion:
“Occasionally, some of our brothers and sisters may find themselves away from the fold because of personal choices. Without condoning those choices it is important to remember the Savior’s message of leaving the ninety and nine safely in the fold and reaching out with love, with kindness and with compassion to the one.”
No, thoughtcrime isn’t punished but it’s heavily censored often passive aggressively from being shared and the thinker is encouraged to get their mind right before they apostatize.
#19:
“In my *personal* experience, this has caused contention, hurt feelings, and offense among women in my own ward. The seeds of contention are sown, and no Spirit dwells in the discussions I’ve witnessed so far.”
Translation:
“Why, just last weekend, I overheard one of those not-so-faithful women in the ward, telling someone that she thought that Kelly woman might have a point! Imagine! Well, you know I made sure right there and then, in front of anyone who might have been poisoned by her wickedness, that she needed to REPENT! And did she apologize? No! She told me to mind my own business!! I’ve never seen such a spirit of contention!!!!
Which will earn you a quicker trip to the Bishop’s office? Necking or petting?
Which is more modest? Capris or culottes?
KK: “I was excommunicated from my church for asking for equal rights”
It doesn’t play well in the chapel, does it? But it has a very nice secular ring to it!
Kk just needs to drop the grenades and walk away. I’m hurt for her too, but schnikeys she’s determined to go down in flames.
Re. 44, Kristine, I think that might have been the whole point. Angela approached this, but didn’t quite get there (and may not have meant to draw the parallel that far), in her recent post opining that this was a trial of liberalism. I’ve mentioned before that it may have been the intent to create a Birmingham Jail moment. I don’t know if that’s true, but it certainly has that potential appearance from the outside, once I remove my anguish from my vision.
Kristine A, you stated,
“But since history is written by the victor, guess which story gets told?”
For some reason I have little doubt that Kate Kelly is going to ensure her story is told her way.
Green jello with or without carrots, which is the approved correlated recipe? 😉
yes, but It’s not the story being told in our congregations or in our own Mormon history, is it?
how about, “this was super complex and everyone made mistakes until it blew up in everyone’s face and both sides could have avoided this, but they were too stubborn in their righteous indignation to actually act in love with an eye on the long term goal”
how about, in what galaxy is a knee length skirt more modest than capris? (answer: BYUI)
OD #46, carrots?
First I need to know what green jello is… I think jello is what we call jelly, but what’s the flavour? Lime, apple, mint? Is the carrot grated and mixed in the jelly before it sets, or is it chopped after setting and mixed with the carrots? I always imagined the salad to be a basic green salad with chopped up green jelly mixed in. But carrots are orange…
Kristine #47, Yup. I cried all my tears after the first priesthood session action. It’s been like watching a train wreck since. There was always the faint hope that both sides might just sit down and talk, but no….
Should I wear the required t-shirt and knee length shorts under or over my one-piece swimsuit at Girls Camp? Because layers are hot.
anajay #34: Thanks for this explanation. It is helpful. As I said, nobody is talking about these issues in my ward, and it’s not on the list of lesson topics. Our teachers pretty much just stick to the lessons, but I would guess most of my ward would not be uncomfortable talking about it. I just think that there are some different opinions out there, and personally, I don’t see the point to it being a topic of discussion in church. Perhaps your and my views aren’t so different on that point.
I do often wonder why some wards seem to be so anti-discussion. Mine haven’t been like that, but others report that theirs are. Maybe it’s because some people are so entrenched in their view of it that they see enemies.
New Iconoclast: “I’ve mentioned before that it may have been the intent to create a Birmingham Jail moment.” I really hope not, but it’s possible. My own opinion is that OW had already succeeded without Kate’s excommunication. The dialogue has been opened. If the church thinks women are going to be silent about the role of women from now on, they are mistaken. Women were (in my wards anyway) already talking about the role of women. That hits too close to home to ignore. Ordination wasn’t my cup of tea anyway, but it shouldn’t be off the table for discussion either. E. Oaks’ confusing and groundbreaking talk is just a first step toward clarity. Up to now, women have been mostly an afterthought if that in my 46 years of experience.
Which is the best bathroom at BYU?
http://byubathrooms.blogspot.com/
Which Temple has the best artwork?
How can we help men become as spiritual as women as evidenced by the horrible hometeaching vs amazing visiting teaching rates.
Video demonstration of the most efficient way to close folding chairs.
What is the definition of the line between warming and cooking in the kitchen?
Avoiding the appearance of evil or how to not look like a feminist.
Cleaning the church toilets. Fun for the whole family!
Conversations with my daughter part one. “The reason the church spends less time, money and other resources on you is because you are so much more spiritual than those lazy, weak boys.”
Conversations with my daughter part two. “the reason you should cover your shoulders and knees is because you are so much more spiritual than those lazy, weak boys who play shirts vs skins basketball every week for mutual.”
Frozen, a retrospective on how Disney is leading the your children toward a life of debauchery.
The evils of sleepovers and why you can’t trust men.
Men, if you see a child alone, scared, and crying for their mommy, don’t interact with them. Find a woman to comfort and help them find their parent.
Not allowing a father to walk his daughter down the aisle is really an act of love.
Ah, Nick Literski. I see that you didn’t read the description of what happened in my ward, but instead, you imagined a scenario that was the least charitable toward me and my personal beliefs as possible. You don’t know my position on female ordination, at all, but instead of simply asking, you made a snarky comment demonstrating your clear superiority of mind.
I will say again what I said above. “To the extent that this controversy has forced everyone to take sides, those who’ve taken KK’s side have responded — in my experience — with snark, deflection, and reframing.” So, thanks for some more of that snark.
“Let. Me. Vent.”
I did not ask you not to vent. I requested the following:
“I honestly would like a liberal-minded, yet faithful, defense of, specifically, the public advocacy and act of promoting proselyting via organized discussions of the female ordination. Because I can’t think of one.”
anonymous: Finally! “What is the definition of the line between warming and cooking in the kitchen?” This one’s a real slippery slope.
Acceptable post topic #41256: How can men really “liken the scriptures” unto themselves?
Finding the scriptures too female-centric and unrelatable? Are the six named women in the Book of Mormon too distracting? Fear not, the Deseret News has just the book for you.
“Mike Winder, author of the recently released ‘Guy Stuff in the Scriptures,’ decided it would be interesting to look at the scriptures from a male point of view.”
I saw the title of this article and thought it was an Onion spoof but, alas, it was not.
Katie, you say, “I’ve seen snark, but I’ve also seen plenty of logic, gentle persuasion, love, and even kindness and understanding in the face of disagreement.”
My specific charge is that, for the most part, I have seen snark, deflection, and reframing when arguing in support of KK. I believe that this post is an example of that, as it uses the KK case to imply that somehow bloggers are being silenced.
Some take issue with the sequence of events, as though this is a legal proceeding. Some claim she’s being tried “in absentia” despite reports that her priesthood authorities offered many alternatives to encourage her to participate. Some claim they are simply trying to silence alternative opinion, when KK was clearly building her movement and advocating its spread via the press and organized materials.
One may oppose excommunication as the answer here, and my knee-jerk reaction is that I deeply wish it had not happened. But I can’t think of a reason why it shouldn’t have happened, given the scenario. I also don’t feel silenced or that I have to change my normal mode of expressing myself when it comes to my more heterodox opinions regarding the gospel.
anajay: The only reason Kate’s actions and words were divisive is because the church said they were. If they had said “We think these are great questions, ones we’ve also wrestled with. Thanks for bringing them up.” there would be no divisiveness. Well, they were great questions. Instead we got tone argument (she didn’t ask nicely) and tactics (it’s not her place) and strawman arguments (she marched and demanded and shouted – none of which are accurate descriptions).
I don’t blame Kate for raising the questions. But I would have liked to see her treated better. And if it had been me (which I’ve said plenty), I wouldn’t have requested admittance to the PH session once it was broadcast. I would have called it a victory then and there, although it sure isn’t much of one.
But asking admittance was also not that big a deal. Were their girl cooties going to infect the place? We should all learn not to make mountains out of molehills. Heavy handed parents raise kids who resent them and leave without looking back.
Elder Oaks: “It’s always been done this way!”
#49, Hedgehog – I think Jello is what you call “jelly.” It’s a brand name for sweetened gelatin. The green color is nominally lime, but it bears no actual resemblance to any real flavor. It’s vaguely tart.
“Jello” is one of those brand names, like “Kleenex” or “Xerox,” that have become generic terms in Amerenglish. 🙂
Contrary to popular Wasatch Front belief, it’s not a Mormon thing, it’s an American church thing. Catholics have jokes about green jello and carrots or pineapple, so do Lutherans (the two major denominations of my Midwestern youth); both think of it as purely “theirs.” Jello salad is the opposite of what you’re thinking. It’s basic green jello with the veggies mixed in. It’s not quite as bad as it sounds.
Hawk, #52, I devoutly pray that you’re correct. I hope that there’s not a huge chilling effect spreading out from Virginia and Utah and freezing this conversation in the whole church, regardless of what individuals think of ordination. I would hate to see the many straightforward, commonsense issues of equality, common decency, and increasing respect that you and others have so eloquently raised become the babies thrown out with the bathwater by the Orval Faubuses of the Mormon community. I don’t think that will happen in my part of the world, although we don’t lack for dinosaurs; I think our status as a minority culture in a more egalitarian society has affected our ability to see things more charitably. I hope so, I really do.
Commonsense issues of equality are not faith promoting, green Jello is faith promoting.
“We should all learn not to make mountains out of molehills.”
But I think that goes both ways. I would say, to some degree, that the pro-KK contingent in the bloggernacle is making a mountain out of a molehill. They’re letting themselves get whipped into a drama that seems an overreaction. Unless others are planning to start a movement website, stage vigils, and champion distribution of non-doctrinal literature among women of the church, the handwringing over silencing (and witch-hunting) is premature, if not unjustified.
From what I can see, this seems like an unfortunate case of someone starting something that, perhaps, she didn’t really know how to stop. I think there was an element of pride there — and I am not immune to pride, of course — and with all parties backed into a corner, here we are. I wish KK had chosen a face-saving way to de-escalate, but it was clear from her public statements that she had no intention of deferring to that very priesthood she sought.
I pray for her, but I’m not as broken up as some. My mother was excommunicated, and my father was disfellowshipped. Last Sunday they both took the Sacrament and taught their respective classes. Excommunication is not the end, unless one wants it to be.
“Men, if you see a child alone, scared, and crying for their mommy, don’t interact with them. Find a woman to comfort and help them find their parent.”
This is exactly what I will do in the future. After looking at such a child (two to threeish) repeatedly and seeing how scared she looked, I attempted to lead her by one finger (walking) while holding my own child in my arms INTO a group of people (really devious looking–ya know)–only to be verbally accosted by a woman who took the child, led her back to the isolated spot and left her there again as some sort of perverse uncompleted punishment.
anajay,
Two thirds of the church doesn’t even attend and efforts to bring them back aren’t working, the brethren are pretending to police boundaries around the one third that does attend so they officially used their “authority” to mark her and OW as outsiders branding them with scarlet letter. But many of the one third aren’t even believers or are serious doubters, they fake their way through the day wishing they were elsewhere. We’ve even reached the point that “Doubt your doubts” actually needs to be spoken in GC.
Are there eternal consequences to KK excommunication? If there are I suspect they are wonderful consequences because many have received spiritual conformation that God wants to have this conversation and excommunication must be sealed by the Holy Ghost which I doubt will be the case so she escapes with all her saving ordinances while playing a divine role in a mortal drama.
KK took a hard stand but the church took a even harder stand thereby truncating and polarizing the issue. Their best move now would be to come up with a rough equivalent of what OW wanted but packaged differently to save face or given OWs persistence the church will look increasingly archaic and irrelevant to the developed world. And speaking of the developed world guess what, market saturation has been reached or is being reached for the LDS product. Feminism is nothing more than loving women as well as men but given their historic repression it is a consciousness raising project. The church was assembled by proselytizing and it can be disassembled by proselytizing. Time is on their side if they are persistent ultimately heads OW wins, tails the church looses.
Only apostates would ask for women to be ordained to the priesthood because, to our knowledge, women haven’t been ordained before in the periods of the world’s history in which they were most often considered as chattel or, at best (in the most “liberal” societies) not as chattel but as dignified human beings, albeit beings who were not moral agents unto themselves (basically at all times in earth’s history until approximately 1920 in the US, a few decades earlier in some Scandinavian countries, far-flung areas of the British Commonwealth, and a couple of Western US states).
OW and KK are asking for Church leaders to seek guidance from God about the matter of ordaining women to the priesthood.
Therefore, KK, OW, and anyone supporting them or sharing their questions/concerns are apostate. QED.
The matter is so well settled to the mind of any right-thinking Mormon or non-secular person that merely bringing it up is an absurdity. The idea of petitioning the Lord about it is ridiculous, even insulting to Almighty God. Moreover, KK and OW are using methods that almost resemble “protest” methods that filthy hippies used in 1968 to protest against the Vietnam War or for “free love”. We will not countenance such behavior, even if it was reverent and everyone was dressed in Sunday clothes.
There. No need for any further posts about this topic. See how that works? If you continue to discuss this or bring it up or try to communicate with Church leaders about it, you don’t understand the Gospel. Like KK, you are an apostate. This is the last word.
Anajay: “But I think that goes both ways.” I agree with you on this one.
“the church took a even harder stand thereby truncating and polarizing the issue. Their best move now would be to come up with a rough equivalent of what OW wanted but packaged differently” They could call it WO.
hawkgrrrl-
OK, I’ll try another.
What other safe topics do you suggest?
The disintegration of spiritual matter in outer darkness.
Humor aside. I’m sorry for anyone who is excommunicated. I wish it never happened. However, Kate decided her own excommunication. She now has the option to return. I hope she does.
I hope you and others who appear to feel her excommunication wasn’t justified will try to see things from the perspective of church leaders. They get their perspective from the scriptures (Mosiah 26, for example).
Kate Kelly of Ordain Women speaks about her excommunication excommunication 10 min video
Howard,
I felt a little bit of hesitation about my commet “the church made the right choice”
After about 4 to 4.28 minutes, I was so repulsed I had to exit the video. Seriously, comparing church leaders to sexual abusers is absolutely repugnant. Now, I am a little upset her Stake President didn’t take action eariler. That woman is in serious need of repentance and absolutely should have been excommunicated.
Ken,
I can understand your viewpoint but as a life coach who has counseled a number of abuse victims I can tell you that the parallels she draws are valid. That isn’t to say that her leaders are the equivalent to physical or sexual abusers rather she is addressing the subconscious and perhaps semiconscious psychological dynamics inherent in the church patriarchy and probably patriarchies in general.
You and I coming from male privilege tend to be blind to it and that is why consciousness raising is necessary. Likely she is just as repulsed by the actions of the church as you are by her comments.
In the end the church WILL be shown to be as wrong about this as they were on the black issue or God will be shown to be a misogynist which I strongly doubt given his son’s obvious respect for women. The truth is many probably most men have semiconscious ambivalent or even negative feelings regarding their mothers that is semiconscious projected onto women in general and since “it is the nature and disposition of almost all men, as soon as they get a little authority, as they suppose, they will immediately begin to exercise unrighteous dominion” it easily finds it’s way into even well intended patriarchy subconsciously. This is the primary reason women should be ordained, to bring this to the surface and offset it. The fact that you may not be able to see it doesn’t mean it isn’t there, there are many women and enlightened men who will testify to it.
I am not trying to be flip,I remain open to discussing this at length if you are interested in pursuing it.
The church seems to be saying we are not willing to discuss the possibility that women could hold the priesthood, and at the same time Elder Oaks talk, and women, like men wear the robes of the priesthood in the temple. This seems, very confused.
To me the question is; do we believe that our mother in heaven is equal in power and authority to her husband? I do. If we do then why not now?
If the church is teaching that queen and priestess, is less than king and priest, then we ought to say so, and those women who are not willing to spend eternity in the present relationship to men, can ask whether this is the Gospel, or just the present thinking?
I believe it is the present culture, and therefore subject to change to allign with the Gospel.
Approved topics for this blogger:
How did Joseph transgress in restoring the sealing power and instituting plural marriage (hint, it could have been that he wasn’t having sex with anyone, which left him free to covenant with several dozen women, setting an impossible standard that Brigham and others attempted to meet).
What are the OW discussions saying, and what is the portion that runs counter to the gospel (often not much, but it’s a bit like finding a gnat in your soup, or a snail in your dumpling).
How might the Church expand opportunities for women within the current doctrine, to take advantage of the wonderful talents of all members and help provide better situational awareness to the leadership at all levels?
How might our history have been different if Joseph had been sealed to Jane Manning, either as Emma had suggested (as a daughter) or as a wife?
What are the mechanisms by which the family of man can be knit together for families that did not include heterosexual parents, e.g., where the identify of one parent is unknown, where the known parents were of the same gender, or where only one parent was present (e.g., artificial insemination of a single woman).
How might the Word of Wisdom have been providing guidance for our day, when we project a majority of the world’s population will be suffering from water scarcity affecting economic, social, and medical health (e.g., 50 million children die each year in the world due to lack of adequate clean water)?
And whatever else might come to my mind to blog about.
It’s not what you blog about that will get you “in trouble.” It is whether your blogging betrays a fundamental belief or a deep-rooted disbelief.
Oh, and if someone in the Church is maintaining a file of my online musings, that would be awesome. There are years of conversations I use to have on mormon-l that I no longer have access to. And if someone were recording and cataloging my current musings, power to them! Otherwise my best hope of retrieving my complete oeuvre is to wait until judgement day and hope my dear omniscient Father will have bothered remembering.
Ken wrote: I felt a little bit of hesitation about my commet “the church made the right choice”
Something else to consider is the executioners (the brethren, 70s, local leaders) have never experienced execution nor have the execution witnesses. This truly makes it impossible for them or us to judge. I may be a little closer to it than you because I have been excommunicated so I’m acutely aware of the spiritual, social and cultural costs but I’m also a man so I can only imagine the Catch-22 mind-f of being a women exed for not having the standing of Zelophad’s daughters to bring her case directly yet possessing enough self esteem to dare to act as if she is not one down within a system that insists that she is!
Btw, those advocating excommunication for Denver, Kate, John, Rock or others haven’t personally advanced much beyond demanding their head on a plate!
“Seriously, comparing church leaders to sexual abusers”
Haven’t watched the video, and can’t do that right now. I’m receiving that thought only 3 days after 2 members of our Stake Presidency met with my wife and I for close to 2 hours to discuss our difficulty participating in church and life in general after the loss of a child to an accident 7 months ago. We opened up or pain and watched their reactions–waiting, and sometimes wishing for condemnation that would validate the guilt we are so prone to feeling. I cannot tell you how compassionate and loving those two men were in their lay ministerial capacities. They truly exemplified Christ-like charity and brought us one ministep closer toward physical healing.
It pains me to think that a parallel priesthood leader somewhere in Virginia is being vilified by someone who poisions their every effort to carry out the mission to edify the body of Christ. How long is the church supposed to tolerate a movement of rebellion disguised as ‘merely asking questions’. One confrontation on Temple Square? Two? 10? How many answers from the church that their desire is not to be the practice of the church at this time? A few answers from Public Relations? A couple of talks in General Conference? Do they ‘demand’ an answer from the Prophet? And if he spoke to this directly, would it be accepted in longsuffering and patience any more than it is from Apostles?
I’m disappointed by the tone of this post. Several months ago, Taylor Petrey wrote a journal article called, “Toward a Post Heterosexual Mormon Theology”. Does anybody know if Taylor is LDS and whether or not he faced church discipline for postulating the possibility of room in the doctrine for embracing homosexual unions officially? If not, then it should be pretty clear that there is room for discussing questions. There was, in that case, no “wink, wink” organizing a dedicated group-rebellion clothed in the euphemism of ‘just asking questions.”
Anon for this one: How long is the church supposed to tolerate a movement of rebellion disguised as ‘merely asking questions’…Do they ‘demand’ an answer from the Prophet? And if he spoke to this directly, would it be accepted in longsuffering and patience any more than it is from Apostles?
There is an issue around whether OW was asking or demanding and no one likes to be on the receiving end of a demand. But TSM (assuming he was not incapacitated at the time) since he is the only one who can receive revelation for the church could have chosen to accept it as a request for revelatory services as Moses nicely did for Zelophad’s daughters, ask God and report back with an answer. This would carry more creditability than an answer from an apostle and/or PA.
#57- I can’t believe that book got published. He wanted to read the scriptures from a male’s point of view? How can you avoid that? Sheesh.
My Daughter, Kate Kelly
Check this out!!!
The LDS Church held a 90-minute video conference this week about global women’s issues with leaders of Mormon Women Stand.
Who is Mormon Women Stand?
Angela Fallentine: Mormon Women Stand Co-Founder
Is Mormon Women Stand a church shill? Does this mean the church is having meaningful, helpful conversations on women’s issues with itself?
“Seriously, comparing church leaders to sexual abusers”
This is taking Kelly’s quote out of context. She is really talking about violence against women, and mentioned in passing that her mother works with victims of phsyical and sexual abuse. But if you watch and read, Kelly is emphasizing violence, not sex, so this is a complete mischaracterization of Kelly’s remarks.
Kelly said, starting at 3:20,
You can see the whole interview at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFHf1UZGne8
She’s saying this excommunication is violent, much like BiV did in her post about the Mormon Pointy Stick: Excommunication as a Model of Violent Dominion Theology.
Her quote…..Exactly. Repulsive and not taken out of context. You are ok with this?
Excommunication is emotionally and psychologically violent! It rips one unwillingly out by the roots from their social and cultural connections and it is particularly hard on believers because the church claims their names are blotted out in heaven. This is a massive assault on one’s person hood that is greatly exacerbated by their ostracization from active believers after. And in this case it is being prescribed by men upon a woman! It is the emotional and psychological equivalent of male gang members beating a woman with the added twisted implied parental irony of “I love you”, “you are doing this to yourself”, “it hurts me more than it does you” (Trust me, it doesn’t.). It was an ecclesiastical mugging for having the gall to request the priesthood! Can you say you can imagine Jesus doing this?
Watch GBH on Larry King Live say women don’t hold the priesthood at the present time. It would take another revelation to bring that about but he doesn’t anticipate it because the women of the church are not complaining about it, they’re happy, I don’t hear any complaints about it. 38:40 to 39:42
So along comes KK forms OW and women’s complaints are heard so they ex her for it instead of asking God!
Howard (#88)
Does this sound familiar?
Caffeine protest stopped on BYU’s Brigham Square
http://universe.byu.edu/2012/09/14/caffeine-policy-protest-stopped-in-brigham-square/
BYU students staging a protest against the no-caffeine policy on campus were asked to leave Brigham Square by police officers.
The demonstration was advertised on Facebook, and students planned to hand out 200 cans of caffeinated soda at Brigham Square between 11:50 a.m. and noon on Friday.
According to Seth Howard, who spearheaded the operation, the group handed out 50 cans in three minutes before police officers arrived. The students were informed that they had not gone through the proper channels to hold the event and were asked to take the cans of soda and sign off campus. The officers gave a warning, not a citation. Howard and fellow students stopped giving out drinks and began to move the coolers the drinks were in.
“We just wanted to show BYU there is a demand for caffeinated soda,” said Scott Wyman, one of the students involved in the protest. “We want to show that people will purchase them.”
Howard got involved with the “BYU for caffeine” Facebook group after hearing that BYU dining services saw “no demand” for drinks on campus.
“BYU’s reasoning wasn’t accurate,” Howard said. “We really hope to see a change. It’s not about the caffeine, it’s about the flavors.”
No WI_Member it doesn’t sound familiar. So what’s your point?
#84 Not taken out of context but hardly repulsive. Rather, it seems accurate and appropriate.
Ken, her remarks were not repulsive at all, but were accurate and appropriate. Please volunteer at a battered women’s shelter so you can better appreciate Kate’s remarks.
Hi Howard,
Re: #82, that happened over a month ago (May 20) and caused a huge flap. The PA folks talk to lots of folks, and the MWS folks didn’t realize what “non-attributional” meant. The whole blogosphere blew up about this back in the day.
So last month.
What does “so last month” mean? Does it remove the onus that the church set up a completely Cheneyesque subterfuge to deflect from the fact that they are afraid of the legitimate questions about women’s place in the church and have abandoned the role of mediating between Heavenly Father and the Saints in favor of the faceless PA department?
The truth of the gospel and restoration is nearly 200 years old. How irrelevant does that make it if “last month” is an apparent problem?
Howard,
What I meant was that these two stories have similarities in how they were dealt with. Both groups acted on statements stating there was no agitation or demand for change to something to which the church puts out mixed messages. Both groups made a public demonstration and were told to shut up and go away. In the BYU case, the issue was pushed off onto Dining Services. In OW’s case, Public Affairs faulted poor local leader training. Unfortunately in Sister Kelly’s case, the outcome was severe.
Meg,
#82 read “this week” because I cut and pasted it from the article but as you point out it took place on May 20. I missed the blogosphere blowing up about it, so I’m just discovering it for the first time.
While it is a step forward for LDS hierarchy to actually pay attention and listen to women for a change, I don’t believe privileged LDS women can speak for marginalized LDS women in any creditable or meaningful way therefore it’s a big waste of time and will result in a non-solution that masquerades as a solution and will be defended by privileged LDS women as if it is a solution but marginalized LDS women will as a result feel even more marginalized and probably unhappy that privileged LDS women hijacked their movement and in doing so became even more privileged! In addition there is the split between traditional and enlightened understandings, if one has not been through a personal awakening how can they speak for it or from it’s view point?
Thanks for explaining WI_Member,
I didn’t know if you were implying I was the protestor Seth Howard since my screen name is Howard!
…the church set up a completely Cheneyesque subterfuge to deflect…
I began blogging in the late 90s on political bloggs. It’s a rough and tumble place compared to the softball of the bloggernacle. (far less whiny though) When the powers that be can’t out argue you they gang up on you, if that doesn’t work they moderate you or deny you the last word by deleting your comment and using the opportunity to make it look like they finally said something so compellingly smart that you had no reply. If that didn’t work they used redirects to try to frighten of intimidate you, as people wised up that trick morphed into Rickrolling. After that it escalated to malware, hacking and threats.
This is what the bloggernacle is on it’s way to becoming, it’s beginning to remind be of the same B.S. that went on in the early days of political blogging where those with power and money would stop at little to silence anyone who opposed them. The church now appears to be using NSA type monitoring to compile FBI like surveillance dossiers to be sent to your local leaders for discipline. They intend to control the message and silence those who oppose. They tend strongly toward totalitarian methods and as we well know do not hold truth in high regard preferring to elevate faith promoting folklore above it. Good or evil? You decide.
A popular exmo site has been experiencing repeated DOS attacks and cumorah.com an apparently faithful site that reports detailed LDS membership statistics has been down for a few days I hope it’s unrelated.
Familysearch sent down for 5 minutes last week. I hope it’s not related.
Howard, in what universe is revoking membership in an organization an assault on your personhood?
“Excommunication is emotionally and psychologically violent! It rips one unwillingly out by the roots from their social and cultural connections and it is particularly hard on believers because the church claims their names are blotted out in heaven.”
Voluntary confession of sins can also leave one feeling emotionally and psychologically bare–exposing yourself to a self-initiated state of vulnerability. It can be associated with the same fears described above, yet it can be the movement toward a very rewarding and spiritual awakening associated with forgiveness.
89 & 90,
To see church leaders actions as a form of abuse in this case is absolutely wrong. Is the judge that sentences the abuser an abuser? It is justice, not abuse. No question in my mind Kate deserved excommunication.
What’s more, the idea the Apostles don’t have authority over these issues is laughable. The analyst you cite that made this conclusion from the D&C cleary had thier head in the sand. I would suggest they start with the articles of faith. We believe in the same organization….
Ken: Just because you have no question in your mind of Kate’s guilt (interesting, given that you aren’t in a position to judge her), doesn’t mean that she deserved excommunication. That’s your opinion, to which you are entitled. But your assertions are nothing more than that. FTR, many abusers also feel their victims were asking for it or deserved it. I tend to think her local bishop was passive-aggressive, not abusive, but the way that women are systematically silenced is abusive. We are told to go to our local leaders with questions that they cannot answer, and some of those local leaders turn on the asker and have demanded temple recommends for minority viewpoints. If you really can’t conceive of a situation in which bishops might abuse their power, then I am surprised. While I don’t think it’s the norm, I doubt it’s as exceptionally rare as you perceive.
I think she probably should have been excommunicated, and that it’s completely absurd to say she didn’t see or couldn’t have seen it coming.
That said, the church has been reprehensibly thuggish in this.
Rigel,
Voluntary confession and unvoluntray excommunication are quite different things. Are you conflating them? If not what are you trying to say?
Ken,
I think the leaders fall under the “Father forgive them for they know not what they do” category in this case.
Hawkgirl,
Normally i would agree with you that what happens between a Stake President (I don’t know why you keep referencing her Bishop, he has no authority to excommunicate anyone) and a member behind closed doors is none of anyone else’s business. However, when you exploit the public to promote your cause, you also open yourself up to public scrutiny. I am one of the public with a vested interest.
Furthermore, when you publicize the otherwise private disciplinary council by holding an interview with the media the next day and accuse your leaders of all forms of abuse without a shred of evidence, knowing they are forbidden from responding, you are showing your true color. It is vindictive, disrespectful, spiteful, inconsiderate and a sign of someone who has lost communion with God. Accusing anyone of abuse is serious. I think she has wrongfully tried to shame an organization that I love and I have every right to defend the church and the actions of the leadership.
Ken, a bishop runs a disciplinary council for a non-Melchizedek PH holder (read: a woman) and has the authority to excommunicate. The action was taken by her former bishopric, not her stake president.
Your passion is admirable; your ignorance not so much.
Ken: New Iconoclast is right. This action was taken by her bishop. Because women don’t have the priesthood, excommunicating them never requires a Stake President or a full council. Just a bishopric. Any bishop will do. The bishop who ex’d her is a lawyer (you seemed to object to her use of lawyer speak in another comment above). She’s not the only one publishing things. He also published his letter to her. And since he didn’t take the action until she had moved across the country, what happened wasn’t behind closed doors. She wasn’t there. Could she have attended? Maybe. Or skyped. But she believed, perhaps rightly, that her attendance or non attendance would make no difference in the outcome. And up to a month ago, before this thing started, the church you love is the same church Kate loved. She claims she still does. Some people express their love by trying to participate more.
Thanks for the clarification, I have never been involved on either side and never plan to be. I learned something new.
a sign of someone who has lost communion with God. Bull shit.
.pfd released by Q1 only men allowed to serve in priesthood offices and what constitutes apostasy.
https://www.lds.org/bc/content/ldsorg/prophets-and-apostles/recent-messages/june-first-presidency-statement.pdf?lang=eng
Interesting given TSM’s rumored dimemtua.
#106 – A BIshop can hold a disciplinary council and excommunicate all but a Melchizedek PH. However, he cannot proceed w/o specific direction from the Stake President. I suppose that’s a ‘safeguard’ to prevent a bishop from exercising this authority unwisely, but I’m not naive enough to think that the particular bishop wasn’t “just following orders”. I don’t know enough of the specifics as to why Sis Kelly was excommunicated; I didn’t hear any particulars that would have practically mandated it or likewise precluded same.
Which hand motions are appropriate to make when singing “Book of Mormon Stories?” In particular, this question should be thoroughly discussed when considering the verses that speak of Lamanites.
I wrote this, but, now, I am wondering if this question is sufficiently safe to allow the worker bees of the kingdom to discuss. Perhaps this is one of the mysteries that is better left in the hands of the Brethren, who have charge of all mysteries.