I’ll get back to weapons of mass destruction. But I thought I’d address something that sometimes seems even more toxic — the Young Women’s program.
There seem to be three approaches. The first is “tailor a program to the needs of the young women in your ward.” The problem with that is … well, obvious when you look at the second approach.
The second approach is to look at the support materials and the culture and to provide a program that looks like a modern translation of a Victorian Era finishing program for young women of refinement.
The third is to state that you believe in the same program that existed in the primitive (e.g. pre-correllation) church — basically reading into the past whatever you would like to see in the future, but also including fund raising, using boy scout materials from the 1930s and similar things.
That said, when you ask “what about” in the context of the Young Women’s program you are really asking?
- What about money? How much money should be spent (as much as the Young Men’s program?) and where should it come from (should they have their own fund raisers like the boy scouts do)?
- What about access to resources? Should they be able to use the cultural hall or is that automatically reserved for basketball regardless of what the building schedule shows? You know the drill.
- What about focus? Is the program there for the girls or are the girls just there to serve the guys? (E.g. should it basically consist of service projects which are “your program makes dinner for our program, but we don’t do anything for you in return” or something else?)
- What about range? Is the program just homemaking and modesty or does it have a broader range (cooking, sewing and deportment lessons every week, or maybe some auto repair, basic self defense [including verbal violence defense], health, etc.)?
- What about self determination? How much of the program’s direction in any one year should come from the girls and how much from adults who know “what is good for them” — and if so, which adults make that decision?
Those are the five questions implicit in thinking about the Young Women’s Program. They are hard to answer, so I’m asking for your thoughts. I’ll get back to the easy question, how to solve biological and nuclear weapon proliferation, next week.
But what would an ideal program look like? How would it answer each of the five questions?
For comparison, other thoughts around the bloggernacle:
- http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2011/09/06/boys-and-girls-and-god/
- http://www.feministmormonhousewives.org/?p=6110
- http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2011/09/04/recently-overheard-over-read-on-facebook/
- (etc.) — interestingly enough, much of the conversation is positive.
Wheat & Tares 
Steven, do you have some issues with YW? See like yes.
I can’t speak for other wards, but in ours, YW and YM funding is virtually equal, except for annual camps, where the BSA camps are typically a little more expensive than LDS Sponsored YW camp (and the annual camps are the only target of fundraisers). But the budget for weekly activities is equal. (There’s a caveat: there may be additional funding for 10 other BSA weekend camps; most of those are very low cost with boys providing their own gear and food.)
A few years ago we had some laurels who wanted a high adventure equivalent to what the older YM were doing (in addition to YW camp). We agreed (I happened to be bishop at the time), and they planned and executed it with adult leader and priesthood support.
I’m a big believer in kid-planned programs (which they cannot do on their own completely, but they can do a surprising amount on their own).
In our YW program, the adult leaders work with YW to plan activities that meet the goals of YW, including working on personal progress and giving YW “opportunities to serve others, develop leadership skills, and develop spiritually, socially, physically, and intellectually.”
The YW themselves select activities to plan and execute, so their program is highly tailored to their interest and needs.
Our ward typically has one combined YM/YW activity each month, and the other weeks are divided according to some cadence among personal progress and other activities (including some “combined YW activities with all three age groups, and some by age group).
My son (who is 15) observed a few months ago that he’d rather go to YW because they have way cooler activities (than just playing basketball). Fortunately, the quality of his quorum activities has improved significantly in the last few months, thanks to the efforts of his adult leaders.
Paul, you could be a bishop in my stake. I am discussing issues as they are discussed, in context with other places I have been where things did not go as well.
But you do illustrate what should be normal. Any suggestions on how to get other areas to run their program like you run yours?
It depends on the quality of the leaders, the advisors and the teachers. Just like in all the church organization.
There is no reason for it not to be a progressive, modern program except for the skills and motivation of the leaders. It is designed to be driven by the YW themselves with advice and leadership from the ADVISORS.
I do not know of any part of the program where they are required to “serve the YM” anything. Might be a YW idea or a leadership “suggestion.”
My experiences is that the YW program has gotten equal, if not more money than the YM. Camps were usually “equaled out” no matter what the actual cost.
I think the Personal Progress Program has recently gotten a facelift so it is more relevant to today.
Just like not all boys like Scouting, not all girls are going to like the YW program, so some level of accomodation should be made.
a few years ago, a scheduling problem allowed the yw and scouts to plan a camping trip over the same week. our ward had 1 set of nice supplies and camping gear. the yw got the trailer, and the scouts were told to beg the ward for camping supplies so they could go on their camping trip.
I do live in a pretty impressive stake. And we’ve had some awesome youth leaders over the years — quite a tradition of them, really.
I think some things that help:
1. A stake president who recognizes the need for “equal” programs.
2. Bishops who recognize the need for “equal” programs. (It helped me then to have two daughters in YW and one son in YM, so I could hear what was happening on the ground.)
3. YW adult leaders who speak up in ward council and other meetings. I can’t say how critical this is, and it has been encouraged since Elder Ballard wrote his book on counseling with our councils years ago, and has been renewed in recent handbook training. But YW leaders sometimes need to step up. (We just had our YW president move. I loved attending ward council with her — I was ward mission leader at the time — because she would say something like, “I probably shouldn’t say this, but…” and then say the perfect thing to bring the discussion to where it needed to be. I used to encourage her outside the meeting to keep sharing her views. Fortunately, we have a bishop now who also encourages that kind of open discussion in his meetings.
4. Kids who care enough. It’s tough to be a leader to kids who don’t want to be there, and it’s tough to know how to reach them when they are in that state. Showing them enough love to get them to care is challenging, and it doesn’t always work. But sometimes it does, and those times are great.
5. Having a super program for the youngest members of YM/YW will help grow a generation of older kids who care. We tried a couple of scoutmasters to get the right “fit” with our boys. Our YW Beehive leaders were especially good at scooping those girls up and helping them feel welcome.
6. We had awesome kids. When our ward boundaries changed, one third of our ward combined with one third of the ward to our south (a three for two split). Everyone was in a new ward without having moved. We ended up with about 40 young women. To our great fortune, there were a few of these girls who were just GREAT at being friends to everyone, and the transition could not have been better. It helped to have amazingly spiritual YW adult leaders who really sought inspiration for their girls. And to have PH leaders who were smart enough to stay out of their way.
When I was a YW, I got to experience both ways. For years, we had leaders who let the girls do the planning. We did all kinds of cool stuff: learned self-defense, visited historical sites, did athletic stuff. Then a new sister moved to the ward from Utah. She was appalled at the lack of craft projects. She couldn’t believe how much control the girls had over the program. She immediately set about correcting what she saw as a huge gap. Quickly the girls were sewing fabric keepsake boxes and glueing dead flowers to frames.
That’s when I started signing up for shifts at work instead of going to YW, and I didn’t look back.
I think Jeff nailed it, it is dependent on the leaders called to direct the program.
Our ward has seen a shift similar to Hawk’s experience, and my 2 teenage girls responded the same.
My girls also told me they didn’t like leaders telling them what they SHOULD like (singing hymns, doing crafts, memorizing scriptures, etc), they wanted to do fun and fulfilling activities that were well planned.
They also told me they hate constantly being compared to YM. Let the YM be YM, and the YW be YW. It doesn’t have to be equal budgets or same campouts … And they don’t like being told they are more spiritual than YM and need to set the example for YM. My daughter’s comment was “when did it become our job to be their mom?”. The girls get enough social pressure and comparisons at school, they don’t need it at church.
Again, it comes down to leaders that know and care about the girls, and know what they need.
Hawkgrrl: “appalled at the lack of craft projects.” I definitely LOLed at this.
#7 Heber13: ” My daughter’s comment was “when did it become our job to be their mom?”.”
Love that!
It is interesting to compare the comments here with http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2011/09/06/boys-and-girls-and-god/ and similar discussions.
Should be enough to support the activities the YW want to do. I’ve seen disparity before, and it was the YW which spent all their (equal to the YM) budget in less than a year. The YM was instructed to divide their remaining budget for the remainder of the year. I’ve heard of disparity the other direction (YM with more $), so I’ll posit that this isn’t a straw man.
Re: Camps. In my current ward, the week-long YW camp is as expensive as the week-long BSA camp, and for the YM, there’s about $60/weekend camp addition, essentially paid for by the yearly scout fundraising.
The YW have their own fundraiser for camp, like the YM, in my experience.
Re: basketball. People keep bringing up boy+basketball primacy, and I’ve heard of it; I’ve never seen it happen or known anyone personally to whom it has happened. It seems to be hear-say from where I sit. In my experience, the schedule is the schedule, but if no one has the gym, the boys tend to gravitate there if left to their own desires. I’ve never been in a ward where people don’t stand up for their room reservation.
“Serve the guys?” I’ve never seen this before either, nor ever heard of it until now. What sort of Bizarro-ward do you live in? 🙂
Range *should* be as broad as the girls’ interests and needs. In practice, the activity becomes the lowest common denominator between the girls’ active participation and the YW leaders’ desire. If the YW leaders are boring and controlling, you get a ward where the girls to nothing besides what the YW leader wants (it usually has something to do with scrapbooking or eating junk food, if my experience is any indicator). If the *girls* are boring and all they want to do is have movie nights, the program will fail as well. I’ve seen both of these happen actually.
I know YW leaders who have told me “I wish we could do high adventure stuff, rappelling, camping, etc.” When I tell them they should be able to, they just need to get the girls onboard and budget for it; they have often found out that the great majority of their girls didn’t like that and pushed back (“we’re not the scouts; we don’t *do* camping”). Every outdoorsy leader I’ve known has been crushed by the girls, *never* the Bishop/et al.
Currently, my own daughter is in a program where the Beehive advisor cancels weekday activities 2 weeks out of 4, and when they do get together it’s something like baking cookies and eating them. The 12 year old girls don’t know what they are capable of, and don’t know what YW activities *can be*, and the YW leadership doesn’t seem to be trying to fix the current situation. So, my daughter of course dislikes going to what few YW activities actually happen.
The BSA program has a strong focus on developing self-determination in the scouts. It’s built to teach 10/11 year olds with no sense of self-determination to not only determine what they want to do and how plan for it, but to lead (by the time they’re 16 or so) other kids who don’t know what they want to do. The job of the adults in the BSA is “shadow leadership” meaning: asking hard questions that an inexperienced kid would never think of, to train the kids to think critically and maturely about their options. If any program runs without this, it does a big disservice to the scouts.
I *wish/pray that* the YW programs had a similar focus and tactic. I haven’t ever seen shadow leadership as a leadership method in YW though, but I haven’t been in YW leadership. From the outside, all I’ve ever seen is autocratic YW leaders on whose whims the program runs or dies.
N — when my wife was in Young Womens as an adult adviser, they got thrown out of the gym any time they reserved it for basketball.
When my daughter at BYU was in Young Womens, serving food for the young men got to be a once a month service project — and the reverse did not happen at all.
Hawk — I’ve seen your experience happen as well. My oldest went through an adviser like that.
Anyway, appreciate the comments. I’m very pleased with my current ward and stake, I’ve just also seen things very much differently at times. My post was an analysis of issues, not prescriptive.
I did not include anything that is not an issue that I’ve personally encountered (though through my children and other family members, I’ve never been in Young Womens myself).
Appreciate the comments and the thoughts.
I saw first hand growing up in Utah the difference between the funding of the programs. While YM and YW programs are funded equally, the young men had the benefit of drawing on scout funds for activities and simply changed the label to “scouts” instead of YM activity.
The young men in our ward got to go on a scout camping trip *every* month (Yes, one other their favorites was the build your own ice cave in winter). I often asked my dad, who was involved in the scouting program, why the girls don’t get the same activities, and he flat out said it was money. The young men get to use scout money and the young woman have to make do with the small amount available through the ward. In fact, my dad said he once asked about donating money specifically to the YW program for activities and such, and he was told he couldn’t donate to one program, only to the ward in general.
It’s been my experience that, if anything, more effort is expended on the YW than the YM (which do have Scouting as well)…which is as it SHOULD be.
Not that young lads don’t need quality programs, but in general, give ’em a ball appropriate to the season (base, foot, or basket) and chance to male-bond, and with a minimum of supervision, they’ll do fine.
Our wee lassies require a bit more finesse and a more attentive approach. In truth, can’t be too rich or thin, and can’t spend too much on YW…and at times they need attention or support more than bucks. I’ve been happy to go to the girls camp,for example, and fix up their cabins for the season, and, when my boys were of age, to have them along to serve their sisters in the ward as well.
After all, remember what you’re dealing with…quoth the great (fictional) philosopher, one Quark of Deep Space Nine: “She’s a female, Rom…and if there’s one constant in the Universe, it is…that women are TROUBLE!”
“The young men in our ward got to go on a scout camping trip *every* month (Yes, one other their favorites was the build your own ice cave in winter). I often asked my dad, who was involved in the scouting program, why the girls don’t get the same activities, and he flat out said it was money.”
Well, yes and no. Now that I’m a mom of a scout I understand a lot better what this is all about, and it’s really quite simple. The boys are required to have 20 campouts in order to get their Eagle Scout award. This isn’t about boys somehow being more special, it’s simply that they have requirements to fill for the program.
Although I understand the instinct to try to compare the two programs, it really is a bit like comparing apples and oranges. Scouting adds a different dynamic to the YM program, but that doesn’t mean the YW program can’t be great in its own right.
I think N. has a lot of good insights. The local councils of leaders and youth can be creative…and good activities don’t have to equal expensive ones.
In my mind, it’s just like anything else in the Church. People have to learn as they go, learn by experience, and be patient with each other in the process. It’s part of the risk (and blessing) of a lay church. But the foundation is there for great things if people will take the time to read the handbook, seek the Spirit, and use the council system.
Michelle, thanks for your additions to the thoughts.
I’m the YW Pres in my ward. It works like Paul’s (#1). The girls plan most things that aren’t preplanned (like temple trips, combined mutual that’s planned in BYC, etc.). Then we just do what we’ve planned to do. If we think we won’t have enough in the budget to cover something, I talk to the Bishop, and it all gets worked out. YW and YM both do fundraisers for camp. Ward members can donate to YW camp in their offerings, but I don’t know about just for the YW program. Oh, and I feel extremely comfortable sharing my thoughts in ward council. Might as well be candid, right? Anyway, before you clarified what those experiences in the OP were from, I thought, what kind of a nutso ward does he live in?
HeidiAnn, if I lived in a nutso ward, I’d move. In a heartbeat. I’m living in this ward because I really like it.
#14 Douglas, you’re kidding, right?
All four of my sons (the last one is in YM now) passed on any communal basketball fellowshipping. The notion that the needs of all boys are met through ball games is just wrong. (Similarly, not all needs are met through scouting, and I’m grateful for youth leaders who recognize this fact and act accordingly.)
Paul, I lived in a ward like #14. six man half court basketball teams. My group had 13, so I sat out the basketball every MIA. There are people who believe exactly that.
#20 Stephen, sadly I know they exist. I was in one for a while, too as a young man (though we got some new leaders who helped for a while). 😦
What I have learned is that the Young Men and Young Women organizations are not youth organizations. They are organizations of adults serving youth. When my son became president of his deacons’ quorum, I had him go to the “Serving in the Church” section of the Church’s website to see what might be there to help him understand his calling. As a counselor to the Sunday School president, I had found what lds.org had available was surprisingly useful. There was almost nothing there, though, for Aaronic priesthood leaders. Instead everything was aimed at their quorum advisors and that trio of adults we call a Young Men presidency. When the General Young Men president flew out from Salt Lake City to train in our stake center, there were no youth present among the dozens of ward and stake Young Men leaders being taught.
There is supposed to be training given to the new AP presidencies by the advisors as part of the presidency meetings. But, I imagine it is easier for some just to tell the YM what to do at the time. Most of the time, the leaders use the materials the Church provides, it can be a good experience for both sides.
But I think John M may have hit the nail on the head for many wards.
I am totally with Paul on this.
In my ward we have had auto repair taught to the YW and YM and me being a woman and interned as an auto technician taught it. Our self defense was taught by a working mom who was also the YW president. Her husband stayed home with the kids.
I’ve heard at Sunstone women talking about the YW programs but I’ve always been super confused by the statements they made. They didn’t apply to my ward, not even a little bit.
Over half the leaders in YW work.
We do a garage sale for girl’s camp and the YM are there to haul in people’s items and sell the products too.
For me it was really nice to have this positive transition into adulthood. I was reading Tina Fey’s new book and she talks about girls becoming a woman when a man yells an obscene comment about their body. That wasn’t when I realized I was a woman, it was when I was welcomed into YW by the older girls.
I tried to get the girls to camp or kayak but they didn’t want to.