In case you missed it, there was a kerfuffle a couple days ago concerning the use of the LDS church’s familiar “CTR” shield on packaging for condoms. Planned Parenthood of Utah (PPAU) issued the special run of condoms with a bright pink CTR shield for the Sunstone Symposium, currently underway in Salt Lake City. PPAU said they wanted to “use the idea of ‘choosing the right’ to spark open, honest conversations about sexual health and contraception.” PPAU spokeswoman Katrina Barker explained, “We felt like this was an audience that would appreciate it.”
While Sunstone participants may have appreciated the humor, the wider Mormon community missed it. After significant public uproar (and church lawyers indicating permission was never given to use the trademarked symbol), PPAU removed the condom photo from their Facebook page and decided against giving them out at the symposium.
I was honestly a little surprised at the vehement reactions from members. Tying “CTR” to condoms was clearly inappropriate and despicable in their view, but I was most amused when they justified why it was inappropriate…
Using the CTR shield violates trademark laws!
Well, yes, yes it does. Funny thing is… most of the time Mormons don’t care about copyright/trademark laws. If you’re really so indignant about people using the trademarked CTR symbol for free handouts, you must be furious when people actually do it for financial gain. Now’s the time to sic the Church on all those Etsy sellers despicably using the CTR shield in baptism invitation cards, homemade jewelry, adult t-shirts, mugs, vinyl decor, embroidery designs, cookies, laser-cut lights…
What about the CTR shields on all those freebie designs members share on the internet? Do Sugardoodle and Pinterest users need to worry about the legal consequences for using the church’s trademarked or copyrighted material?
Oh, here’s a fun exercise, find me a ward choir that hasn’t broken copyright laws by photocopying music without permission.
They are sexualizing a childhood symbol!
Ahem, “My body is a temple and you don’t have a recommend!” They could’ve labeled their condoms “temple recommends.” That sexual enough for you?
Why “prostitute a childhood symbol of faith” in using the CTR shield? Because the whole purpose behind the CTR symbol is to make you stop and think about what you are doing. It prompts you to examine the morality of your actions.
As far as CTR being only a childhood symbol, you might want to let all those teens and adults in your ward know. They’re wearing more CTR rings than any of your primary kids. How many young adults at BYU are wearing CTR rings, ostensibly to help them keep morally clean (which for them definitely has some sexual connotation)?[1]
Using a condom is NOT choosing the right!
I know a lot of married couples who would disagree.
Oh, wait… you mean premarital sex? Here’s the thing, Salt Lake City is having a BIG problem with sexually transmitted infections right now. Health officials point to the lack of comprehensive sex education in Utah as the major contributing factor, and politically conservative Mormon culture is blamed for the insistence on abstinence-only education.[2] So if Mormon culture is seen as contributing to a major public health crisis, and there is a 4-day symposium in town devoted to Mormon culture, can you understand why Planned Parenthood might connect addressing sexual health as a morally correct thing to do (CTR)?
Planned Parenthood associating itself with the Church is satanic!
Ah… there’s the rub. Planned Parenthood is not a popular organization in Utah (or any place dominated by political conservatives in the United States). Utah was one of several states attempting to cut federal funding to the organization. In spite of government investigations declaring otherwise, many people still believe Planned Parenthood profits from selling fetal tissue from abortions.
While the Church’s official stance on birth control and abortion is more lax than other Christian religions, churchmembers tend to ally themselves with the politically conservative pro-life (anti-abortion) camp. For many, Planned Parenthood is all about promiscuity and dead babies. Free contraceptives represent promiscuity. Promiscuity leads to dead babies.[3] Planned Parenthood is founded by the devil himself, an emblem of the “mother of harlots,” the “great and abominable church” itself, to put it mildly.
So if someone saw the “great and abominable church” exploiting innocent symbols of the “church of the Lamb of God” for their own evil purposes, how would they react? Well, pretty much as expected – like the world was coming to an end.
Discuss.
[1] At BYU, CTR rings were even incorporated into the dating scene. One roommate there informed me they were the Mormon version of Irish Claddagh rings – pointed one way meant taken, pointed another way meant single (never could keep straight which way was which). When we got engaged, my husband switched his CTR ring from his right ring-finger to his left. He did it partly to get used to wearing a ring on that hand, but also because a lot of guys we knew did it to signal engagement.
[2] A comprehensive sex ed bill was shot down in the Utah Legislature earlier this year.
[3] Assuming you aren’t using the free contraceptives, of course.
Wheat & Tares 
Planned Parenthood has come a long way since it was an eugenics operation.
Until Intermoumtain Healthcare steps up to provide true woman’s healthcare to the poor, it will remain a primary provider.
On the other hand, given their current political alliance and public face people can be forgiven for thinking they meant to offend.
Is it fair to assume that PPAU’s motives are innocent and legitimate but church member views are dishonest and illegitimate? Surely PPAU knew there would be a kerfuffle? And proceeded purposefully to create the kerfuffle? Isn’t it uncharitable to poke a neighbor in the eye?
Yeah. Pretty much.
It looked like a poke in the eye. But more, being too clever by half.
I agree that PP probably knew this was going to get a lot of backlash and chose to do it anyway. I can also see why people are upset by this. It takes a symbol that they love and uses it to promote something they fear.
That being said, I personally think it’s mildly amusing.
Furthermore, abstinence only education is a bad idea. Teach it at church, but not at school.
And finally, I can’t count the number of times I’ve heard the phrase, “they’re choosing to be offended,” when the church is the offending party. Can we all agree that this is not a helpful thing to say?
Planned Parenthood has come a long way since it was an eugenics operation.
Indeed, last I read they’ve become a body parts operation!
What I see is unfortunate, is the association with the Sunstone Symposium, which more recently has lost some of its nefarious reputation in broader LDS culture. Average members will think that if this is the sort of humour people at Sunstone like, they clearly are as apostate as everyone always said they were.
Ji, people who hate Planned Parenthood will be legitimately infuriated, but I dislike them justifying their fury with questionable arguments. Suggesting the fury comes from trademark violations is dishonest. Suggesting condoms are inherently evil is dishonest. They hate Planned Parenthood. Just lead out with that.
Nate, most people I talked to who were angry about the condoms have no clue what Sunstone is.
Howard, you aren’t the only one who has read that.
EBK, I can’t really say I was amused (more just rolled my eyes), but I have to give them credit for getting my attention and making me think about why they did it. Given the affiliation of Mormon culture with the current healthcare concerns, it made sense. Unfortunately, most people who saw it have no context – they don’t know why Sunstone participants might appreciate a different use of a Mormon symbol, they don’t know about the STD problem in Salt Lake right now, and they don’t know about the recent political angst with comprehensive sex ed versus abstinence-only education. As far as they can tell, an abortion business has chosen to sully a cherished church symbol for kicks and giggles (like the Deseret News editorial indicated). Desecrating sacred symbols in a broadway musical made by two non-Mormons is one thing. Desecration sacred symbols by people in Utah who have some idea of what they mean will cause a different reaction. People assume PP knew what they were doing and were trying to offend, therefore they should be publicly shamed.
Re. STD’s in SLC. I don’t know who is contracting and transmitting them, but it reminded me of a comment I read somewhere recently. A man talking about how much he loved serving in a YSA ward bishopric, how much he respected and admired “his” kids. On and on…. And then – *sigh* – “If only I could get them to stop having sex with each other.”
If it’s happening, it needs to be protected. But, yeah, I don’t like the packaging. Seems calculated to offend.
Mary Ann,
It isn’t that they hate Planned Parenthood — if Trojan or any other condom distributor did it, there would also be a kerfuffle.
You sound like you acknowledge a basis for an emotional response, but you want to deny Latter-day Saints the right to have an emotional response. Logic and emotional responses don’t always go together. It’s okay to allow others to have an emotional response. Indeed, isn’t it wrong to over-analyze emotional responses? Or to deny their validity because they are emotional instead of logical? I see no hatred in the emotional response.
Speaking of hatred, there is probably far more hatred within the Planned Parenthood camp than there is in the Latter-day Saint camp, don’t you think?
Mary Ann–and the truth is the elements of trademark violation are kind of hit in what has made them angry.
A strange but true moment.
By the way, my first response was wondering if the logo is trademarked. No hatred, though.
Quote:
“As far as they can tell, an abortion business has chosen to sully a cherished church symbol for kicks and giggles (like the Deseret News editorial indicated).”
Yes.
Which is too bad.
They could put them out of business any time by offering good primary health care service to indigent and poor women. Until that happens I’ve little sympathy with those who dislike PP.
Those services are essential and needed.
It is so interesting that the LDS culture and church can laugh off The Book of Mormon as a musical that is completely offensive to the church in every way possible. The musical gets a pass for being hugely popular and financially successful. But PPAU is a non-profit. It gets government money. It is seen as the enemy. Anything PPAU does is going to be seen as evil. It amazes me that so many people don’t know anything about PP .. Other than abortions. Abortions are a very tiny part of PP services. Basic reproductive health exams, contraception, STD screens, pre-marital exams, and pre-natal care. PP does it all. Their free condoms get handed out to anyone who wants them — single, married, young, and old.
I think the CTR logo is very funny. And it might cause a few LDS youth to keep their clothes on. “Choose the Right” on a condom wrapper. The church should have thought of that!
Mary Ann, I hope things are as you say and most people aren’t associating this with Sunstone, but I just wanted to respond (and full disclosure, I am on the board of directors at Sunstone, but this message is just my personal view) to commentary that differentiates Sunstone from the broader Mormon movement.
Notwithstanding church history with symposia that has certainly produced a certain participant bias for symposia like Sunstone, the intention is to provide open forums of Mormon thought that are respectful of all people. This is meant to be even broader than just the mainstream church (so yes, there are presentations from ex Mormons, liberal Mormons, community of Christ, polygamist folks, and so on… Whereas you wouldn’t really see all of those in church, but all of those voices are still in the Mormon community)
But obviously, believing, active, conservative Mormons are still also part of that community.
There is a tension here in that we want to provide that wide forum, but obviously there is a history, but this should not imply that Sunstone personally believes or endorses the views of any participants.
But the other part of the tension is that it’s sometimes difficult to assess the specifics of someone’s presentation, panel, or even what they intend to offer at their table, so we may not always perfectly assess when someone is actually intending to present in a way that is not respectful to certain parties, and thus, which is not consistent with Sunstone’s values. I agree that it is tremendously unfortunate that, even though this event didn’t actually happen, it is still often discussed in association with Sunstone. I share Nate’s reservation.
Definitely there’s more work to be done so that things like this can be resolved before they become media spectacles.
Let’s make it clear. Planned Parenthood is not an abortion business. Abortions make up just 3% (2013 numbers) that they provide. The other 97% goes to cancer screenings, family planning, STD screenings etc. Abortions are an extremely small part of what Planned Parenthood does, and they provide services to the poor and uninsured that nobody else does. Let’s at least be fair with our characterization of Planned Parenthood.
This reminds of a great line from a character written by Orson Scoot Card once said, “Mormons are so straight I wonder how they sit down.” I see this as a perfect example of that. The average Mormon likely would never heard about this, and certainly don’t care about everything else out from Pie and Beer day to porn videos having garments, to the South Park guys. This is the first I’ve heard of it and I thought it was hilarious and a good way to talk about the deeper issues. I kind of wish Mormons could take a joke, especially when STDs are such a public health issue.
I thought this was hilarious.As mormons we seem to get a sense of humour bypass with baptism.Perhaps the best way to frustrate the purposes of opposition is not to take offence. Lack of humour has come to characterise those who see their beliefs as under siege, and I don’t wish to be associated with such positions.
BoM the musical has offered us a great opportunity to bring the church out of obscurity here in the UK. Non-defensive conversations can help people understand the mission of the church and lead the fair-minded to a curiosity about the church that would otherwise be non-existent.
It never occurred to me that there was copyright on LDS imagery as it seems to be widely used for all kinds of purposes that I might find
questionable, and having come across members that have said to me they would rather their child suffered the consequences of unprotected sex than be educated about condom use, my sympathy starts to run short.
But we all get to choose our response.
There are certainly some members for whom Planned Parenthood is a third rail. There’s a lot of disinformation out there about what they do. They absolutely provide a valuable service to the community, mostly in terms of the health benefits for poor women and access to birth control.
I wish the church would have taken the stance they did with the Book of Mormon musical on this one and turned it into a teaching moment. What better message than CTR on a condom? Seriously!
I don’t think it’s forgivable due to “their current political affiliations”. I think they deliberately chose it to attack the church as well as the concept of abstinence. They would not admit that but I believe it’s true. I hope they get sued over it. Not sure about the legalities of selectively defending a patent but I think they can.
Jen: “I think they deliberately chose it to attack the church as well as the concept of abstinence.” Possibly they did. I don’t know what the intentions were, but in terms of likely outcomes, putting CTR on a condom wrapper will rather encourage abstinence among LDS teens. It’s an ambivalent gesture. Did PP mean that it’s “right” to choose protection? Or that in the moment of temptation you should instead choose not to have sex? Even if they intended the former, they misunderstand the target audience if they think it won’t result in the latter.
Andrew, the anger I personally witnessed in my circles was always directed at PP. Several had gotten the impression that PP would be handing them out to the general population, so I was attempting to correct them by saying it was limited to a Mormon-themed conference which was probably why they picked a Mormon-themed symbol. I know that Sunstone made every effort to be respectful of PP, their participants, and the wider community. Ultimately it was probably best PP decided against giving them out with the negative publicity.
Jen, there was a news article where a lawyer said a case could be made that someone could see the product and assume it was sponsored by the church. Given that they were never handed out, though, I have a hard time seeing the church pursuing this. Other than saying they didn’t give permission, I haven’t seen much response.
Ji, you have a valid point that another condom company co-opting the symbol would have caused a similar uproar. I don’t know that as many people would have felt so personally offended if it came from a company outside Utah, though. The people who seemed to be the most angry already held negative feelings for PP. Their reaction (to me) was based on attitudes that PP is evil, which informed the extreme offense. My bias is that I am concerned about the public health issues, and I’ve personally witnessed repercussions of teen pregnancies (with and without adoption involved). So while I am ambivalent about the inherent righteousness or sinfulness of Planned Parenthood, I am angry that people would react the same way they do with politics and immediately assume evil intent. It’s like when my daughter asked my mom if a specific political figure had ever done anything good, and she said no. When you have that much hatred for something, it is impossible for you to believe anything good could ever come of it. Just like when people dislike the church and immediately assume evil intent on the part of leaders. That is not an attitude I tolerate very well, so my reaction is probably emotional as well.
As far as anger in the PP camp? There’s a lot of general anger towards Mormonism here in Salt Lake because it’s such a dominant presence. A *lot* of people get a kick out of mocking the church. However, there is quite a bit of frustration about the sex ed and STD issues (my husband is in the medical community, and I’ve been surprised by how frustrated some docs here are about it). The anger I see from the docs is that their patients are unsafe because of the legislative decisions (influenced by the surrounding culture). I feel it’s safe to assume that PP has at least *some* legitimate concern for the health of people. My gut reaction is that it is unfair to assume PP’s sole purpose is sin and they are seeking to undermine everything good and righteous. (Especially when I hear from LDS girls who have used PP for free contraception and healthcare services because they were on Medicaid as stay-at-home moms and couldn’t find clinics who would accept it.)
Whether there is more anger in either camp? That’s like saying who hates who more, Republicans or Democrats. In my experience, it’s pretty equal – which irritates the heck out of me because no one is willing to work together.
This is awesome. I almost think there’s a mole in the LDS PR department. The LDS church couldn’t shoot themselves in the hypocritical this often without professional help. This is getting lots of great press. Well done PPH! Mission accomplished!
…hipocritical foot…
Mary Ann,
Thanks — I think I understand your perspective better. I have never lived in the center place, and I only know about the kerfuffle from this thread — I haven’t heard a single person say anything about it, and I don’t know anything about animosity between PP and Utah residents. My own reaction was one of sadness, seeing people purposefully poke Latter-day Saints in the eye by appropriating a (trademarked) children’s symbol for uncharitable purposes — not that condoms are uncharitable, but mocking one’s neighbor and poking him in the eye is uncharitable. I would be similarly saddened to hear of a cigarette manufacturer or booze distributor or pornography publisher appropriating the symbol for marketing in Utah (or elsewhere).
However, I think we need to get used to it. The sophisticated will always make fun of and point the finger and wag the tongue at the faithful. I understand the emotional response that was intentionally stirred up in this matter — but that sincere emotional outcry creates more excuses for the sophisticated to laugh and point all the more.
Planned parenthood is a godless immoral organization. They promote teen sex as perfectly okay. So, to have a condom ad campaign which is already geared towards teenagers and then use a known symbol of primary age kids and associate it with their stance on promoting children sex is downright disturbing and evil.
Where are those stats from? I find them a bit hard to believe, particularly if they are unchecked.
For the record, there are nine Planned Parenthood locations in UT, only one location offers abortions.
Having grown up in UT, I’ve always been aware of an underlying inferiority complex common among members in UT which sometimes manifests itself in knee-jerk defensiveness. We don’t know the motives underlying PP’s actions, but probably not their best idea.
Good point
Rob, I’ll agree with your comment if you’re willing to call your family a “godless immoral” family for doing good 97% of the time, and sinning 3% of the time.
MH,
I didnt bring up abortion. I was speaking strictly about PP promoting teen sex.PP has no buisness teaching sex education to our children. They teach teen sex is perfectly okay- just wear a condom. They also teach that all kinds of other immoral practices such as homosexual sex is okay.
Rob,
Truly your comment 33 is a GROSS exaggeration–so much so that I would argue that it is a “godless immoral” comment. Teaching contraception is not the same as promoting teen sex. Teens are going to have sex whether you like it or not. I would much rather teens use contraception than get pregnant out of wedlock, thus cursing the child to either abortion or an unready mother who very often abuses the child and the cycle is repeated. To argue that anyone, including Planned Parenthood, is somehow immoral in teaching sex education proves that you are the immoral person, and to try to blame this on God is a godless comment. Truly you are a godless immoral person, pretending to worship God. This is truly taking God’s name in vain.
Go blow your immoral godless conservative “family values” on some other blog.
Planned Parenthood provides comprehensive sex education—including abstinence and urging teens to talk to their parents about sex and dating.
Let’s be honest, mosy of planned parenthood s money comes from abortions performed.
Why would they hand out condone at sunstone? No one, except the promiscuous gays there have a need… Iow, the nerds there don’t get any and don’t need condoms.
Let’s be honest. The 8,000,000 cancer screenings Planned Parenthood did in 2013 brings in a lot more money than the 327,000 abortions. It’s not even close, and you’re dishonest for making slurs with your crappy argument.
Let’s also not forget that abortion reduces crime. And contraception reduces abortions. Handing out condoms is in all ways a win-win.
Try an honest argument there laserguy, because you’re full of dishonest BS.
MH,
You are entitled to your opinions. My opinion is that PP philosophy on sex education is immoral and wrong. Also, why are you such a jerk in your responses?
I’m still wondering where the offence gets anyone? Would we rather our children die of ignorance?If they do have sex, surely we’d rather they had safe sex as caring parents?
I’ve participated in sex ed with all my kids,and it has always asserted the right of young people to not be sexually active as the first discussion, and as the only foolproof method of contraception. Consent is a major issue that is taken seriously in sex ed.I think we need to get with the program and this was probably shock tactics to provoke this conversation in the mormon community. Where does offence get us?
The problem is in opposite philosophies concerning sex education. PP has no morals it teaches whereas the church teaches strict morals. PP approach is that kids are going to have sex and nothing is wrong with that, just use contraception, and we will help you with that. The church teaches sex only after marriage and parents should be involved in teaching.
The question is when are we going to go after liquor stores, restaurants, movie theaters, supermarkets, and newspapers for all the Godless immorality they subscribe to…
Don’t forget Starbucks!!!!!
Jeff,
When they put a “CTR” symbol on the vodka bottle I say that would warrant a claim. Thats essentially what PP did with their condom.
Rob, I used all of your same verbiage when I responded. If you view me as a jerk, that’s exactly how you sound to me. Your answers are HORRIBLE exaggerations and strawmen. If you don’t like my tone, quit using that tone!
For example, even in your latest responses, you engage in name calling. “My opinion is that PP philosophy on sex education is immoral and wrong.” My opinion is that your philosophy on sex education is immoral and wrong.
“[Rob] has no morals [he] teaches whereas the church teaches strict morals. [Rob’s] approach is that kids are [NOT] going to have sex and nothing is wrong with that, just [DON’T] use contraception, and we will help you with that. The church teaches sex only after marriage and parents should be involved in teaching.”
(see same words you used.)
Problem is that the church hates talking about sex, and therefore the parents don’t talk about sex with their kids. You’ve no solution for that problem. You’d rather have kids get pregnant as a penalty for their sinfulness. THIS IS IMMORAL REASONING. Don’t make the problem worse and curse the child. Prevent the pregnancy in the first place by actually talking about contraception. Kids are going to do it–even religious kids. Getting pregnant out of wedlock makes the problem worse, not better!
I’ll also add that the church teaches that contraception is ok (for married couples) not wanting children. I don’t think premarital sex is ok, but I do think if teens are going to do it, they should be responsible and not get pregnant.
Just tone down the rhetoric and exaggeration and you’ll get more pleasant responses from me. My responses are simply a reflection of your jerkiness. If it ain’t pretty, I agree. Be nicer!
Rob, teaching “safe sex” does not magically mean there are no spiritual consequences. Spiritual consequences, though, should be pointed out by religion, not a government or business. Talking about “safe sex” in the community is like saying “don’t drink and drive.” If you are going to participate in an activity that is inadvisable (from both a health and moral standpoint), at least do it in a way that minimizes the health risks to yourself and those around you. You can’t escape spiritual consequences, but have some consideration for the lives you can affect by that decision.
When they start putting Mormon logos on coffee, alcohol…..
Rob O: What about Pay Lay Ale and Polygamy Porter? These are craft beers that are using Mormon concepts. Where is the ire?
The correlation of abortion and lower crime is not something I’d consider proof of causation. It’s a stretch and unprovable.
I realize I’m not Rob, but both those examples deal with things in the past. Things in the future, like future choices can make it look like the church is endorsing condoms for future sexual choices. I see a difference.
MH,
I choose not to dialogue with your harshness. Have a nice day.
Mary Ann,
I agree that government has no business teaching our children about sex education and when, with whom, and how that sex should happen. Leave that to parents and religion.
Mainstreet Plaza had the following to say:
” don’t think very highly of these excuses. It was an inappropriate use of someone else’s copyrighted logo. Planned Parenthood shouldn’t be handing over the moral high ground. I support their decision not to distribute the condoms, and I hope they’ll simply apologize for the oversight (if they haven’t already).”
“Using the CTR shield violates trademark laws! Well, yes, yes it does.”
I don’t think this is accurate. I haven’t done an exhaustive search, but it seems the trademark in question only covers the use of the CTR shield on rings. If it were a broader trademark, the unauthorized uses you mentioned would be more than adequate demonstration that Intellectual Reserve is failing to police it’s trademark, and would have lost the rights associated with the mark.
“I choose not to dialogue with your harshness. ”
That’s total BS and you know it. I’ve reflected your harshness back to you, and suddenly you see it when on the receiving end, but are blind to giving it. Take the beam out of your own eye before you help me with the mote in mine.
But you have a nice day too. I’m much happier not to dialogue in your harshness.
Jen, click on the link I provided in comment 37. I’d be happy to discuss the possible weaknesses of Steven Leavitt’s arguments with you. I think he makes a compelling argument that abortion reduces crime.
I’d also love to talk with you about a study in St. Louis that shows increased contraception reduces abortion. Less teen pregnancy and fewer abortions should be something we should all agree with.
I hadn’t heard of this, and yes! It made my head explode. I simultaneously laughed out loud and was pretty offended at the same time.
I don’t think the outrage is just pent up hate towards Planned Parenthood given an opportunity to manifest. The CTR symbol is a brand, and brands have power. CTR has meaning to a lot of primary kids and teenagers. Show a 14-yr-old kid a condom in a CTR wrapper, and that’s an image she can’t un-see. Probably the biggest part of sexual purity for teens is simply not dwelling constantly on sex (pretty tough in western culture), and the church environment is supposed to be a refuge from that. I grant PP wouldn’t understand that, but at the same time, I have no idea what message they intended to send Sunstone participants.
The reason people like me are leery of sex education in schools isn’t the curriculum, it’s the subtext. I think sex education is very important, and I want my kids to have it. What I don’t want is for respected adults to teach my kids that teenagers have sex all the time, it’s just normal, and it’s no big deal. I don’t want them being taught that kids can’t or shouldn’t control themselves, and that it’s unreasonable to expect them to remain virgins until marriage. I don’t think those things are true. There are a lot of Mormon kids who remain chaste. I don’t want it made harder on them by their godless, progressive, immoral teachers whose attitudes and disrespect come through loud and clear even when the curriculum is good and useful. I recognize that most people will behave immorally sexually, and it’s important that they be educated to protect themselves and others, but the advantages of sexual abstinence outside of marriage should also be promoted, even if sexual immorality can’t be recognized for what it is.
I know that Planned Parenthood does a lot of good. I don’t know how much harm they cause. I am highly suspicious of their collective attitude and agenda, and the little stunt with the condoms merely stokes my suspicions. It looks like a manifestation of liberal contempt for moral values. That’s why I don’t want such people providing my kids’ sexual education.
MH,
Im trying to help you remove the beam from your eye but you are too stubborn to listen.
Rob, spoken well by someone whose beam is so big that they are blind. Stop poking Planned Parenthood (or me) in the eye by using words like “godless, immoral” to describe them. Because when you do that, I’m going to immediately call you godless and immoral. When I call you godless and immoral, you recognize the jerkiness of the terms. Stop using them as descriptors of others.
As an example of a better comment, Martin at least acknowledges “I know that Planned Parenthood does a lot of good.” I can also appreciate his point that “the little stunt with the condoms merely stokes my suspicions.” It’s a fair point.
But like any form of controversy, it also stokes a little conversation. It may further harden people in their positions (as no doubt it has done to you), but hopefully it provides people an opportunity to listen. Planned Parenthood does do a lot of good in the community. If you can’t see that, then please remove the beam from your eye. If you had no insurance, and went to Planned Parenthood and they discovered your wife had breast cancer, and charged you less than market rates, I’m pretty sure you would have a much better feeling about them. As I’ve said countless times, they do cancer screenings for the poor that nobody else does. Literally they are life savers.
Now Martin I don’t believe your comment: “What I don’t want is for respected adults to teach my kids that teenagers have sex all the time, it’s just normal, and it’s no big deal.” I have attended 2 of my children’s sex talk at schools here in Utah County. Both were provided by BYU professors. They never said “teenagers have sex all the time, it’s just normal, and it’s no big deal.” I would be shocked if Planned Parenthood gave this message. Now maybe in some jurisdictions this message is given, but I’m positive it doesn’t happen in Utah, and with a little communication I’m pretty sure that school administrators could also send the message (with or without Planned Parenthood) that “kids [CAN] or [SHOULD] control themselves, and that it’s [NOT] unreasonable to expect them to remain virgins until marriage.” I know I got that message in college (and I didn’t go to BYU.)
So I don’t believe that Planned Parenthood teaches a morality-free curriculum, and I’m certain that people in charge of the school district can teach “don’t have sex before marriage, but if you do, be smart and wear a condom. Women, if your morals dictate that you can have sex without marriage, think about the different birth control methods such as IUD, the pill, female condoms, Norplant–especially if the man refuses to wear a condom. You should avoid pregnancy until you are ready to become a mother.”
Some may want a more religious message, and they can send their kids to private school. But I think this is a pretty good message to all whether one is religious or not.
Can someone point to me where Planned Parenthood actually teaches sex ed in schools? Because I’ve never seen it, and I tend to believe these fears Martin and others state are overblown distortions of reality. I’d like to see exactly where Planned Parenthood is sending the message “teenagers have sex all the time, it’s just normal, and it’s no big deal.” I see that message from Hollywood, but I don’t see it from Planned Parenthood. Could this be a conflation of Hollywood with Planned Parenthood? I think so.
MH, I agree with pretty much everything you said, but the pricks we’re kicking against are not the same — I’m in California, not Utah. The contempt towards religious people (and particularly Mormons, thanks to the Prop 8 conflict) is pretty common, including among educators. And the conflict isn’t just a matter of degree — there is a real conflict of ideology. That I would suggest that someone’s sexual behavior is immoral is considered itself a moral outrage.
I agree that state-sponsored sex education in schools can be very good. I’m just pointing out that it can also be pretty bad — with the exact same curriculum — simply based on the attitude of the presenter. I also believe it’s quite possible for people like me and more liberal types to agree on a reasonable compromise, but it’s premised on mutual good will. Creating Planned Parenthood CTR condoms is exactly the sort of thing that makes me doubt the progressives’ good will.
You couldn’t pack any more irony into that statement if you tried.
Someone (MH I think) asked if PP actually does sex Ed in schools. I think not. But I do think they try to influence the curriculum. PP apparently at least provides tools and resources and advocates for certain methods of sex Ed in schools. I’m not aware of them actually providing the instruction in the school. Here is a link:
https://www.plannedparenthood.org/educators/implementing-sex-education
I have talked in detail to someone about their office visit to a PP clinic. They had an routine exam. While taking the medical history both the nurse and doctor asked if the patient knew about “Plan B”, although birth control discussion was not initiated by the patient. Overall, it was a positive experience.
So I think PPs sex education consists mainly of pamphlets and materials available in their office and their website, as well as a proactive approach of discussing sexual health in office visits and public forums. It would be interesting to know if I am wrong in any of this.
My oldest daughter prided herself in high school with having the most sexual knowledge .. And the least experience. Knowledge is protection. We talked about EVERYTHING. Foreign objects. Gerbils. Names of toys people use. You name it, we talked about it. She had questions. I answered .. Even when it was uncomfortable.
I remember talking to a mom whose 10 year old daughter asked, “What is oral sex.?” The mother told her, “That’s when people talk about it.”
That mother thought she was protecting her daughter. She wasn’t. She was actually giving her daughter information that could cause her harm in the future.
What is molestation. What is oral sex. What is a BJ. Contraception. Fake promises of love in order to get into your pants. What is consent. What is an orgasm. All are things that every child needs to know about.
That same daughter of mine, she knew that we hoped she would wait for marriage, but it was her body and her choices to make in life. If she chose to do differently, we asked that she talk to us or another trusted person in her life and make sure she was protected from pregnancy and disease.
Lots of knowledge. She chose to wait. She married in the temple. She married as a virgin bride and married a virgin groom. But if she had made different choices, we would have loved her just the same and supported her choices, abd would’ve been grateful for the knowledge she had.
PP gives information that some parents are afraid to give. Too many parents think knowledge causes promiscuity. All the studies state that increasing knowledge actually decreases promiscuity, disease, and pregnancy. PP doesn’t portray sex as without consequences. They are very blunt about the emotional, psychological, and physical ramifications.
PP is not sinful or immoral. They are providing the information that parents are afraid to talk about.
BTW .. I took a couple friends in high school to PP for contraception. They were making lousy choices .. But they needed to be safe while they figured it all out. PP was very unhappy with these high school girls who were having sex. There were hard lectures and talks and a lot more judgment than my friends expected there to be. They both walked out kinda stunned. They had expected PP to support their sleeping-around ways. Nope. No so much.
“I agree that government has no business teaching our children about sex education and when, with whom, and how that sex should happen. Leave that to parents and religion.” Oy vey! Bring on the condoms! If we leave it up to religion and parents to teach about sex, we’ll have a lot of pregnant teens too embarrassed or ashamed to get help they need. E. Bednar can’t even bring himself to say the word “sex” opting for the euphemistic “procreative powers.” Let’s be serious! Kids should learn about sex the old fashioned way: TV shows.
Thanks for a realistic look at PP Amateur Parent! It’s not at all like the stereotypes we’ve been force fed to this point here. It’s great to have a personal anecdote.
PP believes in comprehensive education including abstinence as the only fool-proof method of avoiding STDs and pregnancy. They also urge young people to talk to their parents about dating and sex and try to dispel myths such as many/most highschool students have had or have had sex.
I’ve lived in different parts of California for over 20 yrs, and raised children on both the east and west coasts of the U.S. What is true about California is it is extremely diverse. There are some very liberal as well as some very conservative parts of California. My children all received appropriate comprehensive sex-ed in schools.
My kids also received appropriate and thorough sex ed in California. I also think we don’t give our kids enough credit when we refuse the government instruction because it will teach them teenage sex is okay. It’s the other kids that are making the arguement much more so than any single sexes class, and my kids all understood that as church members we have different standards anyway. Kids are not stupid.
Ah, Mormon Heretic.
I gotta compliment you. Your moniker is as accurate as JAna Riess’s blog title. At least no one can complain your a wolf in sheep’s clothing. Your teeth are very honest… If only your comments could learn to be honest as well.
While those who love to kill babies, apparently like yourself, insist that “abortions make up a small portion of planned parenthoods business.” this takes a fairly creative definition of “portion of business” Those who support pre-birth infanticide, such as yourself, claim abortions make of 3% of PP services…
However, under oath, Cecile Richards admitted that abortions account for ” 86% of it’s non-government revenue.” That is certainly the most probable definition of “large portion of their business.
Planned parenthood makes money off of abortions, and uses it to pay for “first-class flights, charter travel and entertainment costs that included $622,706 on “blowout parties” with celebrity guests.”
In fact, tax records show that Richards received 590,000$ / year to promote pre-birth infanticide.
So, who should I believe… The woman who PP pays 590,000$/year to promote pre-birth infanticide, or some deranged exmo who calls itself Mormon Heretic about the cost of business. She claims 86% of the money came from abortions, you provide no stats, percentages, or evidence and claim “conventional wisdom says that I’m right, therefore I provide no links at all and call you names because you disagree with my superior worldview”
I can’t find any evidence of anything over 900,000 cancer screenings a year, which although isn’t nothing, its also redundant now that everyone has Obamacare…
As for crappy slurs… I’m not sure which offends you the most, pointing out that promiscuous gays need condoms to prevent the prolific spread of HIV, or that the SUNSTONE participants are such nerds that they’ll never need condemns and so it was crazy to even think of brining them to Sunstone. Is there some sort of HIV epidemic amongst the sunstoners that they are trying to cover up? No wonder the brethren warned us stay away from that group…
Re: reducing crime.
God’s plan… Let’s teach fathers to stay with families and teach boys how to be good members of society and reduce crime that way. That way they can exercise their agency in positive ways.
Satan whispers to Mormon Heretic… Let’s kill all poor babies and reduce their agency to reduce crime.
“Try an honest argument there {Mormon Heretic}, because you’re full of dishonest BS.” Right back at you, MH
http://www.redstate.com/streiff/2015/09/30/cecile-richards-abortion-86-planned-parenthoods-revenue/
http://thefederalist.com/2015/10/14/4-ways-planned-parenthood-has-billed-taxpayers-for-elective-abortions/
https://www.c-span.org/video/?c4553000/abortions-86-non-government-planned-parenthood-revenue
Laserguy,
This is the first time you’ve been on the blog. As a friendly reminder, you ought not to insult and issue blatant falsehoods about the permas or anyone else on your first time here (or any time for that matter.) You know nothing about me. I am not an exmo, but a VERY active, believing Latter-day Saint. (I’m not going to give you a resume of my activity, but suffice it to say I have a calling and probably more active than you are.) Add to that the incendiary rhetoric regarding Planned Parenthood, and I know you listen to dog whistles.
I see you’ve learned well from Donald Trump on how to insult your way to your position, rather than give well-reasoned arguments. Go blow your dog whistles on another blog. It’s not welcome here.
Ohmygoodness why not pull the post? Everyone’s ugly is leaking. Quit already…what ever happened to respecting other’s right to their opinion even if you disagree? We can all privately think the ugly thoughts and retain some dignity….can’t we?
Mh, just how you are able to divine anyone elses alleged activity rate based on the fact that a), they disagree with you, and B) think abortion is immoral is certainly interesting. Just what other magical powers so you possess?
I see that you’ve managed to call my remarks incendiary without engaging the substantive statements I be made countering the myths you continue to spread about the wonders of pp.
As you continue to dismiss me. Would you like to add any actual references to substantiate your fanciful 8 million number, or counter PPD CEO that 86 percent of their non govy funded income comes from abortion? Or would you like to leave your silence as an admission of defeat? I’m sure the readers will be able to form their own opinion of the matter, regardless.
@Laserguy
http://www.factcheck.org/2015/09/planned-parenthoods-services/
http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2015/oct/05/dana-loesch/Planned-parenthood-86-percent-abortion-revenue/
Suffice it to say, PP is a non-profit organization. Not every PP provides abortion services. Abortion services are perhaps the most expensive on a single basis simply because they are also the most costly service to administer, which does not necessarily equal the most profitable service they provide.
Thank you for the links Lois. It’s good to know that done liberal websites are afmitting the veracity of the 86% of business, and debunking the 8 million cancer screenings MH claimed above. I do wonder however, where the discussion of 97% came from, as I never claimed it. I wonder when mh will admit that they were incorrect wrt 8 million cancer screenings…
Here’s the thing – most active Mormons WANT people that have pre-marital sex to get an STI. They want to believe that sex is bad and leads to bad consequences.
Are2dto,
Somehow I’m doubtful that you have some hidden insight into what “most Mormons want (or think)…” Do you have perhaps a link to any form of survey that leads you into this mystical insight? And perhaps you could be a little more careful in stating that “Most active Mormons … want to believe sex is bad.” The fact is, most married active Mormons believe sex is good, and believe that extra-marital sex does have negative consequences.
It isn’t just Planned Parenthood that (gasp!) discusses sex ed with adolescents. Once a kid becomes a teen they have the right to confidentiality from their parents when speaking with a medical provider, as well as the right to obtain testing and treatment for STDs and birth control counseling and even prescriptions for birth control without their parents knowledge. It happens every day in clinics everywhere, NOT just PP. My understanding is that PP gets more funding to make these visits less costly to the patient as opposed to a regular clinic that likely makes the kid pay, so of course more teens are going to go to PP.
You betcha I talk to my teen patients about sex. I explain the confidentiality laws to the parent, ask parent and child if I can interview the teen alone, and when parents leaves, assure the teen that they can speak openly with me. I ask a full sexual history and assess if there is a need for birth control, if so, discuss birth control including abstinence. My personal practice style is to explain that having sex is a very adult, mature thing to do, and that one of the consequences of teens having sex can be difficulty dealing with some of the emotional aspects, which is why depression in teens having sex is not uncommon. Knowledge = power.
A friend of mine did a community health project teaching teens about contraception. She initially wanted to go into the rural schools, but none of them would have her citing their “abstinence-only” curriculum. Only the city schools let her in. Funny how those rural school teen pregnancy rates were much higher compared to the city rates.
Rob may say that we should “leave that to parents and religion” when it comes to sex ed. But the sad reality is that many kids get the short end of the stick with both. Even many really great parents have trouble talking to their kids about sex. So once again Rob, your ideal doesn’t work for the majority, and if you had your way you’d be leaving many of your fellow brothers and sisters out to dry.
Also Rob and MH, no need to be comparing the size of each other’s beams. Rob has demonstrated time and time again that his is bigger.
You might find this video interesting. Planned Parenthood Exposed
Howard, that video is a highly-edited fraud. Every allegation has been shown to be false and the makers were charged with a crime (though the case was dismissed because it had been presented to the Grand Jury after its authority had expired). It another in a series of hoaxes perpetrated by people in favor of life from conception to birth.
Yes, the people who made those videos were indicted for fraud: http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2016/01/25/planned-parenthood-videos-grand-jury-indictment/79318450/ (The charges were later dropped.) But suffice it to say those videos were edited unfairly, and words were taken out of context to inflame opinions against Planned Parenthood.
I’m definitely not against contraception nor offering it to teens freely and I would expect that it would reduce abortions.
Um….yeah….what he said….*exactly*
I am in WA state and planned parenthood here certainly DID have a clearly PRO-sex attitude and used language normalizing how lots of teens my age engaged in bondage games and how noal that was but that I should just make sure I had safe words with my partner etc….
Ten years later, they gave me an ALL clear on STDs on a Friday. The following Monday they then told me one last test came in positive…over the phone, with no counseling or support.
I had I had unknowingly exposed my partner based on what they told me prior.
We ended up married and during my first pregnancy, had a Western blot test and found out the original positive test I had was a false positive and I’d never been exposed.
We became Christians after we married….then LDS….
Yup…in WA too. You are considered a weird PRUDE and a zealot if you are a virgin after 15
You guys concern me with your dismissal of the video because “it was proven a fraud”. Seriously! It was a smear campaign supported at high levels against the video. The fact is, the video makers fraudulently claimed to be someone they weren’t and filmed without permission under those fraudulent identities.
Thats the fraud. The woman representing PP is truthfully selling baby parts and discussing how to best preserve them for science during an abortion while she solicits money. The money they make off it isn’t counted in the 86% of non-gov revenue.
That’s bs Jen. The videos were fraudulently edited to look like they were seeking baby parts, but it was100% fraud. The fact of the matter is a grand jury was there to indict planned parenthood, and found those two knuckleheads were the real ones guilty of a crime, just the exact opposite of what they were originally supposed to investigate. That’s a fact.
Stop jumping to conclusions! The video I posted has nothing to do with the fraud you guys are arguing about, it was published in 2013 and it is balanced reporting. Obviously the alarmists claiming fraud didn’t even bother watch it!
Take a look: Planned Parenthood Exposed
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