May Day! Obama Gets Osama

By: Mormon Heretic
May 2, 2011

May 1, 2011 is a day for the history books with the death of Osama bin Ladin.  Ironically, this is 8 years to the day that President Bush declared “Mission Accomplished.”  With the death of bin Ladin, is the mission accomplished now?  What does the future hold in the Middle East?  Does this seal Obama’s re-election?

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61 Responses to May Day! Obama Gets Osama

  1. hawkgrrrl on May 2, 2011 at 1:50 AM

    I do think this makes Obama very tough to beat, especially coupled with the lack of a clear front-runner in the other camp. This is a great day for the US, that is a long time coming!

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  2. Dan on May 2, 2011 at 4:36 AM

    It is also the day Germany declared Adolf Hitler dead. Weird coinkidink.

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  3. Dan on May 2, 2011 at 4:47 AM

    This is a game changer. Americans will drop their support (whatever support was left) for being in Afghanistan. Getting Bin Laden was always our main reason for being in there. We have no overriding reason to be involved in local politics over there anymore. Just listening to this morning’s report here in New York of the interviews with local people celebrating at midnight last night, that’s one of the point people bring up.

    The timing is also amazing in regards to the Arab Spring where the Arab Street are shoving off their dictators, and not through religious fundamentalism, as Bin Laden had wanted, and not through violence, except by the dictators who can’t let go. He became irrelevant as his methods turned Muslims off. You can’t kill innocents and expect people to continue supporting you (that goes for the US as well—the war in Iraq will haunt us for the foreseeable future).

    The continual survival of Bin Laden was a black eye in American prestige around the world. It said, “you can attack the US and expect to live.” The killing of him at American hands said “you cannot attack the US and expect to live.”

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  4. hawkgrrrl on May 2, 2011 at 6:46 AM

    I didn’t mean to conflate Obama potentially being re-elected with it being a great day. The death of bin Laden is very important to all of us who grieved at 9/11. Obama’s re-election just seems more likely as a result of him being at the helm during this important event.

    I’d be more interested in what others think about Pakistan as a result. This certainly makes them look complicit in bin Laden’s eluding capture for so long.

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  5. Jon on May 2, 2011 at 7:03 AM

    It is great that the culprit was taken care of but it is not great the core problem hasn’t been taken care. The core problem being, we are still inter-meddling in the affairs of other countries. There is a reason that there was a backlash against the US and it is not because of our success. It is because we don’t leave other countries alone. We have not repented of our evil ways and should expect more attacks against the US as promised in the scriptures. We should repent and leave our evil ways.

    I know this is pretty negative but how much more blessed would we have been if we had repented instead? How much more would we be blessed is we “denounced war” and trusted in God to be our savior rather than the god of steal? Let us repent and stop the inter-meddling in other countries. Let us stop placing dictators in other countries. Let us stop placing puppet governments in other countries. Let us stop the bloodshed of innocent children and families.

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  6. All_Black on May 2, 2011 at 8:35 AM

    Are Obama & Osama cousins or something. They look very similar.

    Anyways, except for Utah, this probably will tip the election Obama’s way; he did say that his presidency would make it a priority to get Osama and he has. Plus Bush’s recession is practically over, plus republicans are showing more and more hatred of Latinos, plus more people have some health care now and so on….so yes, as long as he doesn’t completely loose the economy, Obama will probably be around for another four years.

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  7. jmb275 on May 2, 2011 at 10:29 AM

    I have mixed feelings. As for Obama, yeah, I think he will be tough to beat. I’m okay with that. I actually like Obama for a few key reasons.

    I do wish we could have brought bin Laden to justice rather than killing him. Perhaps that wasn’t really possible. I can’t help but wonder what the backlash is going to be from fundamentalist Muslims. The second in command of Al-Qaida has already promised revenge on the U.S. What does this mean? Must we permanently reside in another country to ensure our own “defense”?

    Anyway, I agree with Dan and Jon. There is NO REASON for us to be at war, and like Jon, I think it’s precisely because we’re constantly meddling and occupying other countries that creates a problem in the first place.

    Obama, bring the troops home! Stop continuing the Bush era war tactics!!!! We can’t root out every evil threat in the world.

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  8. Jon on May 2, 2011 at 10:46 AM

    So does any know why they buried Osama at the bottom of the sea? Why didn’t they preserve him as proof?

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  9. Jacob S on May 2, 2011 at 11:00 AM

    The official explanation is that Saudi Arabia didn’t want him, and they didn’t want to bury him and create a shrine for fundamentalists to to rally around.

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  10. Ryan on May 2, 2011 at 11:34 AM

    I actually think the way we’re celebrating this death a little bothersome, but perhaps it’s indicative of our culture these days.

    Honestly, the nationalistic celebration is incredible:

    (a) http://yfrog.com/hsqionrj
    (b) http://plixi.com/p/97963746

    I’d post more, but don’t want this to get clogged in the moderator.

    The records we have of Christ generally describe Him giving us the qualities that those that become part of His Kingdom have: they are those that live consistent with his teachings — love all including enemies; merciful, pacifist essentially, etc. etc.

    Instead, many (including many, many LDS) will celebrate this day and will celebrate the death and, in effect, war.

    The end justifies the means, is that not what most are advocating today?

    “We are a warlike people, easily distracted from our assignment of preparing for the coming of the Lord. When enemies rise up, we commit vast resources to the fabrication of gods of stone and steel — ships, planes, missiles, fortifications — and depend on them for protection and deliverance. When threatened, we become antienemy instead of pro-kingdom of God; we train a man in the art of war and call him a patriot, thus, in the manner of Satan’s counterfeit of true patriotism, perverting the Savior’s teaching:

    “Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

    “That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven” (Matthew 5:44-45).

    We forget that if we are righteous the Lord will either not suffer our enemies to come upon us — and this is the special promise to the inhabitants of the land of the Americas (see 2 Nephi 1:7) — or he will fight our battles for us (Exodus 14:14; D&C 98:37, to name only two references of many). This he is able to do, for as he said at the time of his betrayal, “Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?” (Matthew 26:53). We can imagine what fearsome soldiers they would be. King Jehoshaphat and his people were delivered by such a troop (see 2 Chronicles 20), and when Elish’s life was threatened, he comforted his servant by saying, “Fear not; for they that be with us are more than they that be with them” (2 Kings 6:16). The Lord then opened the eyes of the servant, “And he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha” (vs 17).

    What are we to fear when the Lord is with us? Can we not take the Lord at his word and exercise a particle of faith in him? Our assignment is affirmative: to forsake the things of the world as ends in themselves; to leave off idolatry and press forward in faith; to carry the gospel to our enemies, that they might no longer be our enemies.” – Kimball

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  11. Ryan on May 2, 2011 at 11:41 AM

    Moderator: I have a comment stuck in moderation.

    Jacob S: That’s a shabby “offishul” explanation, IMO.

    I personally think he’s probably been dead for years now, and it’s just being “publicized” now. Even so, the way we’re celebrating the death is a bit churning.

    Otherwise, we be a warlike people.

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  12. Jeff Spector on May 2, 2011 at 11:47 AM

    I was wondering how this would play with Donald Trump, the Republican front runner?

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  13. Mike S on May 2, 2011 at 12:05 PM

    Kudos to President Bush for starting this process and showing that if you attack us on our soil, you will pay.

    Kudos to President Obama for hanging in there to achieve the goal. A lot could have gone wrong in this attack and EVERYONE would have ganged up on him for a poor decision. So he did stick his neck on the line.

    And most importantly, kudos to the military forces who pulled this off, who supported them, and who have laid the groundwork over the past decade to pull this off. My hat is truly off to those who put their lives in harm’s way for me and my family.

    God bless.

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  14. Dan on May 2, 2011 at 12:44 PM

    ugh, what is it about Wheat and Tares that draws out the conspiracy theorists?!?!?!

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  15. mh on May 2, 2011 at 1:28 PM

    jeff, trump and frontrunner don’t belong in the same sentence. trump and windbag go better together.

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  16. Jeff Spector on May 2, 2011 at 1:37 PM

    Mh,

    You are too nice.

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  17. Will on May 2, 2011 at 1:53 PM

    Does this seal Obama’s re-election?

    No. The election will depend in whole on the status of the economy. If it rebounds, Obama will be re-elected; if not, it will be the Republican that wins the nomination.

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  18. BrotherQ on May 2, 2011 at 2:00 PM

    It is nice to feel the spirit of national unity that is in the United States today. I haven’t heard partisan bickering (yet), and clearly it is a happy day for all Americans– of whatever party. Rather than claiming this (and I think that no one person or party can claim this event for their own), shouldn’t we just enjoy the fact that the world is a little bit safer today?

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  19. Jon on May 2, 2011 at 2:01 PM

    Does this seal Obama’s re-election?

    Does it really matter? Trade in one war monger for another. Who cares? I guess it would be nice to not have a war mongering president but I don’t see it happening, not with a blood thirsty population that is sold on war for any conjured up reasons the president and industrial military complex can come up with.

    Hey Dan, Nice to know you’re reading my posts. What would I do if I didn’t get a “Thumb Down” from you? Love ya man. Nice to know that I have a friend like you.

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  20. brjones on May 2, 2011 at 3:10 PM

    #5 – This doesn’t really speak to your broader point, Jon, but the vast majority of the people killed on 9-11 counted on god to be their saviors. As did most of the people who have been the victims of genocide as the result of despotic leaders. As well as most of the people who have ever had violence, murder or other atrocities perpetrated against them. It’s all well and good to toss around platitudes about “trusting in god and not the arm of flesh,” but a bible does little to stop a bullet. I find this advice particularly ironic coming from you, considering you have come pretty close on this very blog to advocating the violent overthrow of the US government. Shouldn’t those oppressed by their own governments also lay down their swords and count on god to be their saviors?

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  21. Jon on May 2, 2011 at 3:30 PM

    brjones,

    I have not advocated the violent overthrow of any government. I may sympathize with people that do but I do not advocate it. I might criticize it and teach peaceful principles, but violence begets violence and is only a tool to use in very special situations (like self defense).

    Coming from a religious point of view it isn’t inconsistent to say “trust in God” since the BoM does say that sometimes the innocent will be killed as a testament against the wicked.

    Personally, even without religion I would say that violence begets violence and we shouldn’t be ruling the world like we are. This is demonstrated in the book ” Blowback: The Costs and Consequences of American Empire”.

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  22. Dan on May 2, 2011 at 3:35 PM

    hmmm, if the government is stealing our money (taxation is theft), would not the use of violence be justified to get it back? Or is the “taxation is theft” just rhetorical garbage with no real meaning, because you can’t actually stop the theft without a violent overthrow of the system that is stealing your money? Jon’s rhetoric is akin to someone who is getting raped saying kindly to the rapist, “please stop, because that’s what’s right” and refusing to pick up a rock to smash the face of the rapist.

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  23. brjones on May 2, 2011 at 3:49 PM

    #21 – The overthrow of our own government aside, my point is really that trusting in god to be a savior never seems to have gotten anyone anywhere. Those who are willing to take and do what they want, and in particular those who are willing to use forceful means to do so, are the ones who determine their and others’ fates. God seems to have little to do with it. We can argue over specific conflicts and what our role should be in the world in general, but just laying down our weapons and waiting for god to take care of things seems like just about the worst idea imaginable. The next time god really does step in and take care of things will be the first time.

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  24. Dan on May 2, 2011 at 3:55 PM

    exactly brjones. Geoff J over at FPR made a nice note of the fact that God hasn’t necessarily cared or has shown that he is bothered by his children dying. He’s not stopped the tsunami in 2004 from killing over 200,000 people. Same with the earthquake in Haiti, or the earthquake and tsunami in Japan. Or us killing each other so frequently over history. God did not stop Hitler from killing millions of people. God did not stop Stalin from killing millions of people. God did not stop Mao from killing millions of people. God did not stop Pol Pot from killing millions of people. Sometimes, we have to kill someone in order to stop them from killing millions of people. And I am fine with that. And apparently so is God.

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  25. Jon on May 2, 2011 at 4:46 PM

    @brjones,

    Well, I know we will never agree since you don’t believe that God exists. So that is the fundamental difference.

    As for fighting back. Yes, it’s OK as long as the other entity made the first strike, and I would argue that they need to strike at least two times. The first time we should say, don’t do that, the second all is fair.

    With the 9/11 thing it was we who struck first, 9/11 was retaliation for decades of oppression abroad. That’s why I think we should have repented and stopped interfering in other people’s/countries’ business.

    So do you think it is OK to attack others and not expect them to do anything? If a bully (that is twice your size) hits you and then you hit him back and then he decides to take out a gun and shoot you, is that OK that you are now crippled because he shot you? That’s why I say we should look at the beam in our own eyes and just stop the violence. We should be the adults.

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  26. Jon on May 2, 2011 at 4:49 PM

    @Dan,

    Once again you don’t seem to be able to read (all that training as a librarian hasn’t gotten you very far), let’s look at what I said:

    I may sympathize with people that do but I do not advocate it.

    nice note of the fact that God hasn’t necessarily cared or has shown that he is bothered by his children dying

    Well, Dan, if you don’t believe that God exists either that is your prerogative.

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  27. FireTag on May 2, 2011 at 4:51 PM

    Jon:

    You know I disagree with Dan more often than not. I’m on the political right. But I also had an office on the 90th floor of the Trade Center when I was first married, and you can see my old office’s window vanishing into the fireball of the second strike on the classic Time magazine cover.

    My neighbor this morning got a call from his son who is an officer serving in the theater; his troops are elated.

    Today I am not amused with you.

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  28. Jon on May 2, 2011 at 4:56 PM

    FireTag,

    I know my words are hard. But at what point to we look at ourselves and say, why did this happen? Why did they attack us? Was it our fault?

    I do feel sorry for those that died and wish that we could commemorate their deaths by fixing the problem that caused their deaths. We need not blind ourselves with so called “patriotism” and say everyone in the world is out to get us.

    Tell, me FireTag, do you think the big bully should be punished?

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  29. brjones on May 2, 2011 at 4:59 PM

    #25 – I actually think it’s ok to be the bully, as long as you’re being guided by some kind of rational principles in your bullying. Just because we’re bigger and stronger doesn’t mean we have to sit on our hands. What’s the point of being bigger and stronger if you don’t use your power and influence to get anything accomplished? I don’t presume or pretend to understand all the intricacies of geopolitics or the things we may have done in the name of democracy or nation building. That said, if we see other states doing egregious things, I don’t have a problem, in principle, going on the offensive to stop them. From a practical standpoint I realize that we don’t have near the resources to right every wrong in the world. But again, in principle, I am not opposed to taking principled stands, and I don’t think we need to wait to be hit first, and I definitely don’t think we need to wait to be hit twice.

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  30. brjones on May 2, 2011 at 5:02 PM

    #28 – This is confusing. This has nothing to do with everyone in the world being out to get us. This has to do with one person who has stated that he is out to get us, being out to get us. It’s frankly irrelevant if we were the bully or we started it. If someone murders thousands of your citizens and vows to spend his life murdering more, you don’t give him a pass because you may have done something wrong to hurt his feelings in the past. This is a bizarre conversation to me. We can have a conversation about 9/11 and whether the US did things that made it more likely. I’m fine with looking into that accountability. But that has nothing to do with taking out a mass murderer who has openly vowed to spend his life trying to do it again.

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  31. George on May 2, 2011 at 5:11 PM

    Re: #14

    “ugh, what is it about Wheat and Tares that draws out the conspiracy theorists?!?!?!”

    Ugh, what is it about W&T that brings out the blowhards who know everything about everything and get up on their soapbox everyday to tell everyone everything they know about everything?!?!?!

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  32. Dan on May 2, 2011 at 5:31 PM

    Jon,

    I read you very well. You call taxation theft. That’s your word for it. Thievery is an act of violence. Someone has taken from you that which you did not agree with being taken from you. Yet you do not endorse any action to get that back except to say “please give it back because that’s the right thing to do.” Or in other words, your words and your rhetoric has no actionable meaning. You’re just blowing hot air, just adding carbon dioxide to the atmosphere.

    Your rhetoric on our taking out Osama Bin Laden also has no actionable meaning and is once again worthless waste of carbon dioxide. A guy like Bin Laden doesn’t give a damn if you want peace or not, and he’s not going to be nice to you just because you say “please.” While I do agree that our actions in the Middle East has led to Bin Laden choosing of his own free will and choice to attack us, we’re NOT to blame for his actions. He ALONE is to be blamed for his actions. Thus, it is he who must be punished for killing ours.

    Well, Dan, if you don’t believe that God exists either that is your prerogative.

    As usual, you have no idea what you are talking about.

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  33. mh on May 2, 2011 at 7:43 PM

    dan, didn’t you tell me not to feed the trolls?

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  34. Dan on May 2, 2011 at 8:36 PM

    sorry man, I keep forgetting.

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  35. hawkgrrrl on May 2, 2011 at 8:52 PM

    It’s ridiculous to me that anyone would suggest that the US deserved what it got. If anything, the US’s sin is of being both too isolated and powerful. But if the US were not isolated, it might not be so successful. We have the luxury of not having adversarial relationships with our neighbors and of not being in a position of weakness against neighboring enemies. But that doesn’t make us bad guys. It just makes us naive and idealistic at times. Before 9/11, most Americans would not have been able to fathom why anyone would actually hate us.

    This event represents the US at its best: we are a nation of determined, creative problem solvers. If others won’t help us, we’ll find a way to do it ourselves. It’s our national character.

    As to why bin Laden was buried at sea, one report said it was to respect Muslim tradition that the body be put to rest within 24 hours.

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  36. Jon on May 2, 2011 at 10:08 PM

    bin Laden attacked us for what we have been doing in the middle east for a very long time. You guys really need to read up on your history. We’ve been doing crazy stuff all over the world. All these dictators that people have been overthrowing recently, yep, they were either put in by the US or propped up by the US. The CIA is a crazy organization for the terror that it has unleashed on the world (in conjunction with the military).

    Here’s bin Laden’s reasons for attacking the US:
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2002/nov/24/theobserver

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  37. Jon on May 2, 2011 at 10:14 PM

    @brjones,

    It does matter who started it, and it does matter who acts more responsibly. If we would have denounced are ways and chosen to stop meddling with other’s affairs bin Laden would have backed down.

    If the Chinese were over here attacking us and occupying us in putting puppet governments in neighboring countries would we not want to strike out at them? Of course we would. When you are the big boy and that can bully without much retribution from those you bully it doesn’t seem so bad, but when you are the little guy, you get infuriated. You must not be egocentric in order to understand how the other people are feeling.

    I’m fine with looking into that accountability. But that has nothing to do with taking out a mass murderer who has openly vowed to spend his life trying to do it again.

    Look in the mirror to see who has been doing the mass murder. The USA.

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  38. Jon on May 2, 2011 at 10:17 PM

    Now, I must let you know, everyone. That although I understand where the terrorists were coming from, I do disagree with their tactics. They shouldn’t have lashed out at civilians but focused their energy on the military.

    May we all pray that those who rule us will finally give up war and violence and turn their hearts to God and worship Him. That they may proclaim peace and stop hurting others. Only then will we live in peace.

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  39. Jon on May 2, 2011 at 10:19 PM

    I read you very well. You call taxation theft. That’s your word for it. Thievery is an act of violence. Someone has taken from you that which you did not agree with being taken from you. Yet you do not endorse any action to get that back except to say “please give it back because that’s the right thing to do.” Or in other words, your words and your rhetoric has no actionable meaning. You’re just blowing hot air, just adding carbon dioxide to the atmosphere.

    There are other ways to enact change. Must you not see that violence is not the only way. That there is something that is even more powerful than violence? It’s called gentle persuasion, love, charity. Dan, I urge you to find love in your heart. I love ya man. You are a good friend.

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  40. Jon on May 2, 2011 at 10:36 PM

    But behold this my joy was vain, for their sorrowing was not unto repentance, because of the goodness of God; but it was rather the sorrowing of the damned, because the Lord would not always suffer them to take happiness in sin. And they did not come unto Jesus with broken hearts and contrite spirits, but they did curse God, and wish to die. Nevertheless they would struggle with the sword for their lives.
    —–
    And I did cry unto this people, but it was in vain; and they did not realize that it was the Lord that had spared them, and granted unto them a chance for repentance. And behold they did harden their hearts against the Lord their God.
    —–
    …they began to boast in their own strength, and began to swear before the heavens that they would avenge themselves of the blood of their brethren who had been slain by their enemies. And they did swear by the heavens, and also by the throne of God, that they would go up to battle against their enemies, and would cut them off from the face of the land. And it came to pass that I, Mormon, did utterly refuse from this time forth to be a commander and a leader of this people, because of their wickedness and abomination.
    —–
    And thrice have I delivered them out of the hands of their enemies, and they have repented not of their sins. And when they had sworn by all that had been forbidden them by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, that they would go up unto their enemies to battle, and avenge themselves of the blood of their brethren, behold the voice of the Lord came unto me, saying: Vengeance is mine, and I will repay; and because this people repented not after I had delivered them, behold, they shall be cut off from the face of the earth. And it came to pass that I utterly refused to go up against mine enemies; and I did even as the Lord had commanded me; and I did stand as an idle witness to manifest unto the world the things which I saw and heard, according to the manifestations of the Spirit which had testified of things to come.
    —–
    But, behold, the judgments of God will overtake the wicked; and it is by the wicked that the wicked are punished; for it is the wicked that stir up the hearts of the children of men unto bloodshed.
    —–
    Know ye that ye must come unto repentance, or ye cannot be saved. Know ye that ye must lay down your weapons of war, and delight no more in the shedding of blood, and take them not again, save it be that God shall command you.

    That crazy Mormon guy, sheesh.

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  41. Jon on May 2, 2011 at 10:44 PM

    The Southern Avenger reflects my feelings in a wording that sounds much better than how I come across.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_JEVhtwuU8&feature=uploademail

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  42. All_Black on May 2, 2011 at 11:17 PM

    “the US’s sin is of being both too isolated and powerful.”

    The rest of the world probably disagree with the isolated bit. The US is involved just about everywhere. Biggest bully in the block mostly.

    Why he was buried at sea? probably so that others don’t make a shrine out of his grave site, plus the Navy did get him and they do sea burial still if needed (years ago it was the norm)

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  43. brjones on May 2, 2011 at 11:32 PM

    “May we all pray that those who rule us will finally give up war and violence and turn their hearts to God and worship Him. That they may proclaim peace and stop hurting others. Only then will we live in peace.”

    I don’t pray this. There are too many evil-doers in the world who will continue to do violence and terror. I’d prefer my leaders continue to ensure that we’re the most powerful player on the block.

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  44. brjones on May 2, 2011 at 11:35 PM

    And I might also add the delicious irony in your claim that political leaders turn their hearts to god so that we might all live in peace. I’m lol-ing. The most murderous characters going are the most religiously devout. Exactly how do you see turning more towards god as helping the situation. Maybe if our leaders would forget about worshiping a jealous, vengeful, proprietary god, and turned their hearts to the things and people of this world, and not the mansions and treasures and virgins in the next, then there would be the remotest possibility that there could be peace. Until that time, I’d just as soon our leaders continue to stockpile.

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  45. Geoff-A on May 3, 2011 at 2:41 AM

    As a non American I am uncomfortable with the celebrations being shown, by Americans of the death of another man. I am equally uncomfortable when I see muslem or jewish people behaving similarly. The difference is that they both believe and practice “an eye for an eye”, where as America claims to be the greatest Christian nation, but its behaviour does not seem to match.

    I wonder how the world would be different if after 9/11 the President George Bush had said to the world “as the leader of the greatest christian nation I have a choice, I can go to war as revenge which will cost x billion dollars, or I can put a proportion of that money into a fund to address the issues that those who hate us have with us.
    Would the world be a better place now if he had taken that option?

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  46. Jon on May 3, 2011 at 6:30 AM

    brjones,

    You completely miss the mark.

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  47. Dan on May 3, 2011 at 6:49 AM

    Geoff A.,

    If George Bush had not shifted to Iraq, the war on terror would have ended fairly quickly. But that shift to Iraq messed everything up. It was the worst possible thing to have done.

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  48. Jon on May 3, 2011 at 7:09 AM

    Bush said he wasn’t really interested in getting Osama.

    As I say, we hadn’t heard much from him. And I wouldn’t necessarily say he’s at the center of any command structure. And, you know, again, I don’t know where he is.

    I’ll repeat what I said: I truly am not that concerned about him. I know he is on the run. I was concerned about him when he had taken over a country. I was concerned about the fact that he was basically running Afghanistan and calling the shots for the Taliban.

    But, you know, once we set out the policy and started executing the plan, he became — we shoved him out more and more on the margins.

    He has no place to train his al Qaeda killers anymore. And if we find a training camp, we’ll take care of it — either we will or our friends will.

    He later went and attacked Iraq.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/bush-rejects-taliban-offer-to-surrender-bin-laden-631436.html

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  49. jmb275 on May 3, 2011 at 8:29 AM

    Re Geoff-A

    As a non American I am uncomfortable with the celebrations being shown, by Americans of the death of another man. I am equally uncomfortable when I see muslem or jewish people behaving similarly. The difference is that they both believe and practice “an eye for an eye”, where as America claims to be the greatest Christian nation, but its behaviour does not seem to match.

    I’m an American and I agree with you completely.

    Re All
    I didn’t read that anyone in this thread had suggested that the U.S. deserved what it got. Rather, I read one person suggest that we shouldn’t be so surprised that someone retaliated against the unjustices committed by us in the middle east prior to 9/11. I’d be surprised to hear anyone claim that we had not interfered in the form of violence in the middle east.

    The way I see it, the U.S. meddles a lot in the affairs of other countries. Sometimes that meddling is good, sometimes it turns out very bad and is violent and causes death. Nevertheless, Americans don’t see that. We think we’re super great and always act justly and compassionately. Thus we’re surprised that anyone would try to retaliate. When they do, rather than seeing the writing on the wall (read: stop meddling in the Middle East) we roll up our sleeves in our own effort to retaliate, spending billions of dollars, and getting sidetracked in the meantime with two other controversial wars in the same region. 10 years later we complete our mission of vengeance and declare that justice has been served. Of course then we’re back where we started and round and round we go.

    Here’s my solution:
    I would bring troops home immediately. I would supply first aid, food, and other non-violent equipment to those who are experiencing injustices or who otherwise need help. I would slowly sever alliances with Israel and other countries. I would drastically reduce spending on the military to help alleviate economic concerns, and would take a portion of that money and invest it in defense. And by defense, I mean defense (what our gov’t should provide), not offense (what it currently provides). My idea of investing in defense means putting money into research of advanced technologies to aid in defensive techniques. Missiles to shoot down missiles. Advanced radar schemes for better governance of the national airspace and advanced detection of problems therein. Robotics both aerial and ground based to patrol borders and gather information about potential threats. Better technology to ensure safe air travel (and to get rid of the TSA). My investment would be primarily in small technology firms and startups thus creating jobs, encouraging math and science in the community, while strategically preparing us to be able to thwart future attacks.

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  50. Jon on May 3, 2011 at 12:03 PM

    @jmb275,

    I should just let you say it. You have much more tact than I have.

    BTW, I suggested that people shouldn’t join the military any more while it’s an offensive military to my bro-in-law. Boy, he did not like that and talked about how it makes the young men feel good about themselves and how the grow etc. My response to that is, how much better would it be if these young men and women were going around the world to preach Christ or, if they’re not Christian, go around the world, or even the US, and give service. How much better would that make people view Americans and show good will to the world and make it so people wouldn’t want to attack us anymore!

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  51. Marge on May 3, 2011 at 12:21 PM

    ‎”I mourn the loss of thousands of precious lives, but I will not rejoice in the death of one, not even an enemy. Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that.”

    - Martin Luther King, Jr

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  52. Dan on May 3, 2011 at 12:24 PM

    jon,

    How much better would that make people view Americans and show good will to the world and make it so people wouldn’t want to attack us anymore!

    Riiiight….because Jesus himself wasn’t attacked for teaching his own gospel…surely none of his followers will be attacked if they but just see how nice we are….what a freaking joke….

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  53. Dan on May 3, 2011 at 12:26 PM

    Marge,

    That quote is not from Martin Luther King. He never said “I mourn the loss of thousands of precious lives, but I will not rejoice in the death of one, not even an enemy.” Some Joe Schmoe said that.

    http://www.bartleby.com/73/1893.html

    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. Instead of diminishing evil, it multiplies it. Through violence you may murder the liar, but you cannot murder the lie, nor establish the truth. Through violence you may murder the hater, but you do not murder hate. In fact, violence merely increases hate. So it goes. Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that.

    That’s what Martin Luther King actually said. From:

    MARTIN LUTHER KING, JR., Where Do We Go from Here: Chaos or Community?, pp. 62–63 (1967).

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  54. jmb275 on May 3, 2011 at 12:37 PM

    Re Dan

    Riiiight….because Jesus himself wasn’t attacked for teaching his own gospel…surely none of his followers will be attacked if they but just see how nice we are….what a freaking joke….

    I think you know better than this. I think you just like to attack people and Jon’s on your black list. Jesus was a heretic, a rabble-rouser. He was persecuted because he taught against the status quo (much like some are attacked on this blog for pushing against the status quo) not because he taught the Gospel. No one disagreed with his pronouncements of feeding the hungry, helping the poor, etc. They hated him because he slammed the pharisees, the other governing rulers, and taught that turning the other cheek was a higher form of living than following established tit-for-tat tactics. They hated him because he taught truth that went against what was currently established tradition.

    You know this Dan. Not sure why you’re mocking someone who’s advocating peace. Even if violence is justified sometimes (and it is) doesn’t mean we shouldn’t strive for the ideal.

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  55. Dan on May 3, 2011 at 12:44 PM

    jmb,

    I currently teach gospel doctrine in sunday school. calling Jesus a heretic and a rabble rouser is terribly far from the truth.

    Jesus was to be the King of Israel based on lineage if the Israelites would not have been under occupation for so long. They were under occupation for 400 some odd years. To put that in perspective, four hundred years ago was 1611. For perspective, that’s when the King James Version of the Bible was printed! He was attacked because Jesus proclaimed himself to be who he really was and the ruling Jews could never accept that. Not because he was stirring up the pot.

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  56. Ryan on May 3, 2011 at 3:25 PM

    Dan:

    “calling Jesus a heretic and a rabble rouser is terribly far from the truth. …He was attacked because Jesus proclaimed himself to be who he really was and the ruling Jews could never accept that. Not because he was stirring up the pot.”

    Really?

    You might want to read something like, oh, Matthew 23 – I’m sure they weren’t at all upset when Jesus stirred this pot:

    “But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they amake broad their bphylacteries, and enlarge the cborders of their garments,

    6And love the auppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,

    7And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, aRabbi.”

    13¶But woe unto you, ascribes and bPharisees, chypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

    14Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye adevour widows’ houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater bdamnation.

    15Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell athan yourselves.

    16Woe unto you, ye ablind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!

    17Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?

    18And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty.

    19Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift?

    23Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, ahypocrites! for ye pay btithe of mint and canise and cummin, and have domitted the weightier matters of the law, ejudgment, fmercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

    24Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.a

    25Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of aextortion and bexcess.

    26Thou blind Pharisee, acleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

    27Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto awhited bsepulchres, which indeed appear cbeautiful outward, but are within full of dead men’s bones, and of all duncleanness.

    28Even so ye also outwardly appear arighteous unto men, but within ye are full of bhypocrisy and iniquity.

    29Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,

    30And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the aprophets.

    31Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which akilled the bprophets.

    32Fill ye up then the ameasure of your bfathers.

    33Ye serpents, ye ageneration of vipers, how can ye escape the bdamnation of hell?

    Sounds a whole like someone was stirring up the pot…

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  57. vvvola35 on May 3, 2011 at 4:42 PM

    May 1st or May Day is also a distress call when your plane is going down. I find it ironic that May 1st 2011 is 8 years to the day the George Bush claimed “Mission Accomplished”. I think “May Day” might have been the response to 911 also a distress call.

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  58. Dan on May 3, 2011 at 7:51 PM

    Ryan,

    Study your scriptures more. Matthew 23 occurs right near the end of Jesus’ life, loooooong after the Pharisees had attempted numerous times to kill him.

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  59. Ryan on May 3, 2011 at 9:31 PM

    “Study your scriptures more. Matthew 23 occurs right near the end of Jesus’ life, loooooong after the Pharisees had attempted numerous times to kill him.

    And?

    As to the childish quip – “study your scriptures more” – I’ll childishly add this:

    Proverbs 4:7

    Wanna go earlier in the ministry than Matt 23? Read Matt 16, or Matt 15, or Matt 9, or, heaven forbid, Matt 4… or pick it. The evidence is littered throughout the gospels. The macro perspective is undeniably in favor of someone who wasn’t merely punished for claiming something, but also for tearing down the very foundation upon which the leaders’ perch was safely established.

    Take the macro into your life for a moment and consider that “I currently teach gospel doctrine in sunday school” means absolutely nothing in the scheme of things, nor does it lend any credibility to your argument. Why it was added to that original comment is lost on me, unless you were trying to appeal to your vanity by hoping it would lend credence to your argument. Otherwise, it’s place in that sentence/statement is meaningless.

    Was Jesus killed for proclaiming who he was? Undoubtedly. Was Jesus killed for likewise tearing away the foundation upon which control, authority and dominion was based, undoubtedly.

    The religious leaders of Christ’s day lacked any spiritual authority. Therefore, they jealously guarded their right to claim leadership by asserting authority handed down from Moses’ day to their own. Their appointment to leadership offices, the presences of priestly trappings, and possession of the Temple were all used to buttress their claimed rights to preside and exercise control and dominion over the Jews. Jesus, as a Jew, never challenged this legal right. Indeed, He defended it … He had no place in their hierarchy. You needed to have a recognized place or you were not credible in their culture. These rule-bound but blind guides were strictly hierarchical. When they confronted Christ about the woman taken in adultery, His answer defeated their trap. Then they withdrew. But how they withdrew tells a great deal about them. John records: “And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last”…(John 8:9). Deference to the hierarchy was everything. It even controlled the order they entered or left a room! Imagine what kind of rigid social order this was and how little room there was for inspiration, innovation or creativity. It killed the human and Divine spirit. It stifled. Submission to the existing order alone controlled everything. Christ failed to fit in.

    The hypocrisy and iniquity of these religious teachers was so toxic, so wrong, and so dark that it made others unclean. This forced the audience to choose. There could be no middle ground. Either we trust in the traditions of our fathers, or we follow Christ. This choice has always been required of God’s people. Nephi assures us (2 Nephi 28:14) this will also be the case for our day. Only a very few will find the way, and it will require them to overcome bad teachings; “because of pride, an wickedness, and abominations, and whoredoms, they have all gone astray save it be a few, who are the humble followers of Christ; nevertheless, they are led, that in many instances they do err because they are taught by the precepts of men.”

    There can be no doubt Christ’s words were far from gentle, intended to be an insult, and calculated to shock those who were respectful, deferential and polite to priestly authorities.

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  60. Dan on May 3, 2011 at 10:04 PM

    Ryan,

    That’s still vastly different than being a “rabble rouser” and a heretic. He obviously got under their skin but not because he was a rabble rouser. He didn’t purposefully seek conflict with the Pharisees. Can you name me one instance where he went looking for Pharisees to call them out? They came to HIM! They were the rabble rousers, Ryan, not the Savior. You seem to forget that Jesus was supposed to be the King, and He WAS the Messiah. Publicly proclaiming himself the Messiah allowed him to clear His own house of any whom he felt were an insult to the sacredness of his house. There was nothing heretical about what Jesus said or did. Everyone who listened to him were in awe of his words because his words were a masterful retelling of the original law of Moses. For instance in John 7 when the officers went back to the Pharisees without bringing Jesus, they exclaimed that no man spoke as he did, astounded they were with the clarity of his message. There was no heretical language that came from Jesus. To claim otherwise is to not understand the message of Jesus Christ.

    As for Matt 4, I’m not sure what in that chapter proves Jesus was a rabble rouser…

    And for mentioning that I teach sunday school, I regretted mentioning it the moment I hit “post comment.” Please disregard.

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  61. Jon on May 4, 2011 at 10:37 PM

    So, does any one know why we killed him instead of sending him to an international court, or even, for that matter, to a US court?

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