Interview on Remnant Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints — Part 1

By: FireTag
December 10, 2011

As I was researching a post last summer on some of the organizations that have sprung up in the stead of the RLDS movement as fundamentalist alternatives to the Community of Christ, I discovered that a childhood friend had become one of the leading officials of one such organization, the Remnant Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

Robert Murie, Jr. is one of twelve men ordained to the office of Seventy within the Remnant Church. He is a self-sustaining minister who spent 37 years as a teacher, coach, and guidance counselor in Michigan public schools before retiring in 2003. He has spent his adult life as a minister in the RLDS church, the independent Restoration Branch movement, and now in the Remnant Church, and so has had a deep knowledge of the evolution of alternatives to the RLDS movement. I also know from personal experience that he’s a pretty good man to have on your side in the last minutes of a softball or basketball game.

I contacted him to ask some questions that might help readers of this blog understand the views of the last body more specifically. What follows are my notes of that discussion as it ranged back and forth between the pre-written questions (i.e., they are NOT direct quotes from a recorded transcript, so any errors are mine), cast in an interview form for clarity.

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Q: The Remnant Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is new enough as a specific organization to probably be unfamiliar to most readers of this blog. How did you personally come to be involved with it?

A: Over a number of years, the movement of the RLDS church away from what had been its distinctive beliefs and toward a general liberal Protestantism — what the church previously would have called denominations in “apostasy”  – had just made it impossible to stay with the church. At the time, the alternative was the Restoration Branches, where I became one of four pastors for the Garden City, Michigan, Restoration Branch, but that always seemed temporary. The Branches’ own structure did not provide any authority to ordain new High Priests, and so they could not reconstitute leading Quorums to replace those they believed were in apostasy. The High Priests within the movement were being allowed to age and die, so that the ministry of the High Priest itself would be lost. No one was doing anything except wait for God to do something.

As the Remnant Church was forming after 2000, two Apostles of that organization requested permission of the four pastors in Garden City (as the Remnant Church were doing with many Restoration Branches) to come and speak to the people. The request was granted, and some liked what they heard while some were opposed. Discussions within the branch continued, and the divisions deepened. After a time, two more Apostles visited and invited priesthood from the Branch to attend a conference being held in Independence in 2003. Six of the priesthood, including me, accepted the invitation to attend.

At that conference, I met Fred Larsen [President of the Remnant Church] and received an undeniable personal confirmation by the Spirit that this was the place I was supposed to be. All six of us went back to Garden City with a recommendation that the Branch unite with the Remnant Church, but the result was that the Branch split right down the middle and separated into an independent Restoration Branch and a new Remnant Church branch, meeting separately from each other and neither having any priesthood authority in the other organization.

Q: Were there specific decisions made by the RLDS/CofChrist that were particularly important in your decision to look elsewhere?

A: As mentioned above, there was be a general de-emphasis of traditional Restoration distinctiveness — less emphasis on the Book of Mormon, the historical role of Joseph Smith and his lineal descendants in church leadership, literal establishment of Zion on earth as preparatory to the return of Christ — that continues up to this day with open communion and acceptance of baptism by other Christian priesthood. The acceptance of the D&C section that authorized ordination of women (156) was an especially critical decision-point. More personally, the practices of worship and teaching mattered a lot.  The focus on being inclusive, with everything being “intergenerational” — with ten minutes set aside for one group, then ten minutes for some other group, ten minutes for clown ministry, and so on…

[Interjected Q: "Like a Chinese menu, with one from column A, one from column B, one from column C?"] Yes. By trying to give everyone something in every service, no one was getting enough to sustain themselves spiritually most of the time.

Q: What is the doctrinal distinction between the Remnant Church and the Restoration Branches?

A: The doctrinal positions are very similar, with perhaps the major difference being that they do not accept priesthood lineage as being valid through the maternal line. [Note: Fred Larsen, the Remnant Church's President and Prophet, is the son of a daughter of a son of a son of Joseph Smith, and thus a great-great-grandson of Joseph Smith through maternal lineage.] But that results in the Restoration Branches having no structure to carry out the commandments of the early Doctrine and Covenants to “organize yourselves”. The Remnant Church is reconstituting all of the orders and quorums of the RLDS.

Q: Do you feel that this distinction will grow with time, or are there any organized attempts underway to bring these movements under a single organizational umbrella?

A: There are some attempts, but there are also the stumbling blocks of the differing views about the importance of organizing and the validity of Fred’s right to the office of Prophet. I don’t know if these can be soon resolved. The Restoration Branches are themselves fragmenting into three or four groups, with a number of them wanting nothing to do with larger organizational structures. They do not want to repeat their RLDS experience of someone coming along and telling them what they have to do.

There are recurring discussions between the Remnant Church and one of the large factions of the Restoration Branch movement, the “Joint Conference of Restoration Branches”, a group of four to five thousand which is centered largely in Missouri, but has little strength in my part of the country. Michigan seems to be more the home of those Restoration Branches that want no one telling them what to do.

Q: How does the Remnant Church view itself as a “renewal” of the RLDS tradition?

A: We have very much “patterned” ourselves after the actions of those church leaders in the Midwest during the 1852-1860 period prior to the Reorganization. They began to rebuild the quorums and orders of the church in expectation that God would call a lineal descendant of Joseph Smith to the Office of Prophet if they were obedient to the commandments to “organize yourselves.”

Q: How many baptized members does the Remnant Church have, and where are most of them located? How fast is the Remnant Church growing? Where is your Field as a Seventy located?

A: We have about three thousand members now, with perhaps one thousand or more of them overseas, where we are growing more rapidly. Growth there is most rapid in Nigeria, and we have just had the experience of an entire LDS group in Panama (some 100 to 200 people) who were dis-satisfied with the Mormons, for reasons with which I’m unfamiliar, follow their pastor in [Bishop] asking to speak to us about uniting with us. [Note: Initial baptisms and ordinations from that group were reported in September.]

[Interjected Q: "Like Sydney Rigdon in Ohio in the early days of the church?"] Yes. They seem to be sincere. But we don’t leave the people abroad on their own. The Apostles return there every month or two to make sure everything is well.

Q: Although I know that the Remnant Church has the framework of a First Presidency, a Quorum of Twelve, Bishopric, Quorums of Seventy, etc. that would be familiar to LDS, like the RLDS before it, the quorums are not necessarily fully staffed until or unless there are specific calls. Who makes up the First Presidency? How many of the Apostles are in place? How many Seventies? Is there a Presiding Bishop? A Presiding Patriarch?

A: As stated, the President is Fred Larsen, who is about 80. His Counselors are Robert Ostrander and Samuel Dyer, Jr. [Note: as with most churches in the RLDS tradition, counselors to the Prophet must be High Priests, but do not necessarily come from, nor return to, the Quorum of Twelve.] Seven of the Quorum of Twelve are in place as Apostles, which permits their organization as a Quorum. The President of the Quorum is Ralph Damon. We just recently ordained our twelfth Seventy, which is not yet enough to organize as a Quorum with Presidents of Seventy, so the Seventies meet as an Order at present. My own field of responsibility is the entire North Eastern United States and Eastern Canada. In fact, the significant concentration of our members, and therefore the greatest missionary opportunities here tend to be in Michigan and West Virginia, with Canadian work largely limited right now to areas near the crossings from Canada to Michigan [Note: e.g., Sault Ste Marie, or Detroit] or in Toronto.

The Presiding Bishopric is fully organized, with a Presiding Bishop and two Counselors, and there are additional area Bishops. [Note: in the RLDS tradition, Bishops are general financial officers and Presidents of the Aaronic Priesthood; they are NOT the presiding officers, or pastors, of congregations as in the LDS organization.] The Presiding Bishop is W. Kevin Romer, 54.

We also have an Acting Presiding Patriarch. We also believe in lineal succession to that office based on the traditions of the church, so the Patriarch in that office is only “acting” in Presiding over that Order. This issue of lineal succession of the office of Presiding Patriarch was actually one of the first forerunners of the theological split between conservatives and liberals within the RLDS. Lynn Smith, a lineal male descendant of previous Presiding Patriarchs, was not chosen by President William Wallace Smith in favor of Roy Cheville, who was not a lineal descendant. The reason seemed to conservatives to be the latter’s more liberal political views — but the role of a Patriarch is supposed to be a nurturing father to all of the church and to be beyond politics.

Q: One distinction that may be important to LDS readers is succession to the role of Prophet. In the LDS, the Senior Apostle becomes the next prophet, while in the RLDS tradition, the prophet named his own successor. In the Remnant Church, the Prophet is still a (maternal) lineal descendent of Joseph Smith. Since President Larsen is becoming aged, is there a “younger generation” of descendents affiliated with the Remnant Church to continue that succession practice? Is such a lineal successor an essential belief, or is it something that could change as it did in the Community of Christ?

A: We wonder about that a lot. Although Fred is in excellent health, he has made it known that his letter regarding what is to happen upon his death has already been written and is stored in a safe at church headquarters, and he will say nothing more about the subject. He has no obvious successor among his own children. So, like I say, we talk about it a lot — but not usually in Fred’s presence, because he’s a loving, but no-nonsense administrator like his grandfather, F. M. Smith, was as Prophet.

Q: The Remnant Church’s website has a theme or mission statement: “The Remnant Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints has been called in renewal to preach the fullness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ to all who will listen, and to prepare and gather a righteous people for the building of the Kingdom of God on Earth, Zion.” Does the Remnant Church place a special emphasis on immediate Zion-building as opposed to either a “Zion-in-the-distant future” as now emphasized in the Community of Christ or in concentrating on personal salvation after death as in the LDS?

A: Yes, the urgency of building Zion is a definite emphasis. Even though we are a small group, we’ve emphasized tithing and the storehouse to assemble funds to buy property in Jackson County, Missouri, just as the early Saints did, without going into debt. For example, we’ve developed a 26-acre Retreat and Conference Center [Note: picture to right.] there. Even more recently, we’ve begun development of what we hope will grow into the example community of Bountiful, Missouri, on working farmland in Eastern Jackson County. We have room on the site for hundreds of homes — and we’ve already put in roads and utilities with that in mind.

We follow the zoning laws of Jackson County, so at present we are allowed only to build single homes on 10 acre lots, and we continue to have a share-crop relationship with a local farmer so the land remains in agricultural production. We’ve broken ground on the first homes and have a waiting list, even in these difficult economic times. When all of the 10-acre lots are developed, we can incorporate as a village, and then establish our own zoning laws for Bountiful to establish it as a gathering site.

We know there is a lot more to a physical Zion than this, and there is a lot more property available in Jackson County for that matter, but it’s a concrete step that we can actually take now toward fulfilling the commands of God. There’s not a whole lot of hymn singing.  It’s time to quit talking about it, and get going. As the saying goes, “the future is now”.

Q: The Remnant Church has Three Standard Books of Scripture patterned on the RLDS versions of the Bible (which LDS readers would know as the Joseph Smith Translation), the 1908 version of the Book of Mormon, and the RLDS version of the D&C through Section 144. What made Section 144 the break point?

A: The death of Israel A. Smith [Note: a grandson of Joseph Smith who served as Prophet of the RLDS until 1958.] and the assumption of that office by William Wallace Smith. W. Wallace called strong liberals into positions of leadership and they moved the church toward a more general liberal Protestantism, as we’ve been talking about. Most of the conservatives who rejected this direction also rejected the legitimacy of this Prophet and those who followed him in that office.

Q: The Remnant Church has continued to add Sections to its D&C. What are the subjects of these Sections, and are there any that you find of special personal significance?

A: We are up to 156 now, as of last April. There is a common theme to all of them: urgency. Prepare the bride for marriage to the bridegroom, i.e., prepare Zion so that Christ can return and receive a purified, loving, righteous people unto Himself. It is essential that we stop squabbling over roles — what the Apostles can do, or what the Seventies can do.

I particularly find significance in our 151, where we are told to stop waiting for further instruction from the Lord when we haven’t yet followed through on what we’ve already been told to do.

In our most recent revelation, we’ve been told to start planning for the Temple in Independence. We have no idea how we are going to do this. We have no Temple. There’s Kirtland, but a lot of our people felt that the sharing of those Temple facilities by the Community of Christ with an organization of gay Mormons was very offensive. We’re ultra-conservative on the issue of homosexual relationships. The Statement on Moral Values was one of the first things we issued back in 2004. So we don’t really have anywhere where we can feel comfortable as being a Temple.

But the Community of Christ Temple [Note: and other buildings in the Temple Complex] and the LDS buildings occupy nearly all of the Temple Lot in Independence. There’s a small Restoration group church in the corner, but zoning laws prohibit us building there because of a lack of parking even if we bought it.

So we don’t know how we’re going to accomplish what God has commanded, but we’re moving forward to try the best we can.

[Interjected comment by Q: "I still remember your father preaching a very spiritually powerful sermon to the youth at a camp at Blue Water Reunion Grounds when I was in Junior High School in which he confessed that his generation was not going to build Zion, and told of his vision of the people who would succeed."] Yes, and now we find ourselves at our age and health in the same position.

[Interjected Closing Comment by Q: "Then lets hope we're each breaking ourselves in a good cause."]

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My thanks to Bob for taking the time to share his experience. I hope, in Part 2 of this post next month, to explore some of the unique interpretations of the Remnant Church regarding the law of temporalities, consecration, and the storehouse as specific steps toward Zion-building. I hope to be interviewing a representative of the Remnant Church’s Bishopric.

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21 Responses to Interview on Remnant Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints — Part 1

  1. Stephen M (Ethesis) on December 10, 2011 at 9:47 AM

    That was interesting.

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  2. charity on December 10, 2011 at 11:40 AM

    Excellent interview. Many memories of the earlier RLDS Church return to me in this interview. How different are the paths of the churches, all of which are being led by the Spirit. Much impetus for discernment.

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  3. Jeff Spector on December 10, 2011 at 12:59 PM

    Wow, that is fascinating. I saw the Remnant Church building when I was in Independence a few years ago. I had no idea about it. Thanks for the enlightening post!

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  4. Ray on December 10, 2011 at 1:40 PM

    Wonderful discussion and post. Thanks, FireTag.

    “Then lets hope we’re each breaking ourselves in a good cause.”

    Amen, brother. Amen.

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  5. FireTag on December 10, 2011 at 1:51 PM

    Jeff:

    The building, I understand, is also the High School from which President Truman graduated. So, if they are having trouble with zoning at Bountiful, I imagine the historic landmark possibilities at the building might be interesting to maneuver through as well.

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  6. mh on December 10, 2011 at 3:58 PM

    fascinating post. I didn’t realize that pres larson was a lineal descendant of joseph smith.

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  7. Jake on December 10, 2011 at 4:55 PM

    Its only been recently that I have had by ‘eyes opened’ so to speak about the wonderful diversity of groups that have spread out from the LDS church. Perhaps the UK is sheltered from this but in my mind the LDS map consisted of the LDS church and polygamists and RLDS (Community of Christ). Its great to find that my map was flawed and needs rewriting.

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  8. Rigel Hawthorne on December 11, 2011 at 1:31 PM

    Thank you Firetag for getting back to W&T with this interesting story. Interesting sideline about the “experience of an entire LDS group in Panama (some 100 to 200 people) who were dis-satisfied with the Mormons, for reasons with which I’m unfamiliar.”

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  9. FireTag on December 11, 2011 at 2:32 PM

    Rigel:

    I will be watching this point in future to see what develops.

    There is a little more info in the third item in the release here:

    http://www.theremnantchurch.com/News/index.htm

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  10. mark gibson on December 12, 2011 at 8:34 AM

    I loved the post FT! Very useful.

    Your friend’s comment about the RLDS worship service reminded me of what happened to an RLDS patriarch scheduled as a guest speaker in a worship service. After all of the different groups had their portion of the service, there were only 5 minutes left in the hour. The patriarch introduced himself and his family that were with him, thanked the congregation for their welcome, and sat down. He said that several members afterwards complimented him on his sermon!

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  11. FireTag on December 12, 2011 at 3:43 PM

    Mark:

    When I was pastor, I never felt that ending promptly at 12:00 was part of my sacramental covenant. I was called upon it once or twice by members ready to adjourn to the restaurant (small RLDS congregations were big for pot lucks or eating together afterwards), but I blamed it (usually truthfully) on having to spend 15 minutes at the start of the service going through a recitation of announcements of OTHER social activities. Community-building has to leave time to visit with the One who actually centers the community generation after generation.

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  12. PB on December 12, 2011 at 4:00 PM

    Seems some msgs are no longer on here–one that described a service having 5 minutes for different groups to ‘do their thing’–what church was that person talking about? I don’t know any former RLDS or current Restoration or Remnant congregation that ever had a format like that! Just curious who he/she was talking about. Mark and FT: we go over past 12 many times. Announcements are made before the service starts, so as not to take away from the worship setting. I don’t consider the congregation singing hymns or taking up the offering to be wasting time in the service. They’re all important parts of the worship experience. A minister usually has about 45 minutes to use, more or less. And pot luck dinners are one of the best ways for the Saints to fellowship together AFTER church. How do you get to know your fellow saints if you don’t spend time with them?? That is just one way, of course, but a very effective one. And many drive a good distance to get to church, it’s great to be able to stay and eat together. We usually do that one Sunday a month. : )

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  13. FireTag on December 12, 2011 at 4:21 PM

    PB:

    “A minister usually has about 45 minutes to use, more or less.”

    You are correct about that in the “traditional” RLDS, and I presume that would still be true in the Restoration Branches, or Remnant Church. That is not generally true as worship has evolved in the CofChrist.

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  14. PB on December 12, 2011 at 4:33 PM

    One more reason I’m not going to COC. You will still find many COC branches and congregations still using the general old RLDS service ‘format’ in states away from the Center Place, tho. And to be clear, services can vary–don’t have to follow a strict format–but most of the time, the Sunday morning preaching service is typically like that, unless it is a baptismal service, baby blessing, or ordination service. Then the speaking minister is usually giving a ‘charge’ to the person/s involved in the ordinance and to the congregation for their responsibilities and that is usually 20 minutes or so. There are other possible exceptions, like for instance, a missionary’s slideshow talk about his experiences in a foreign mission.

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  15. FireTag on December 12, 2011 at 5:01 PM

    PB:

    Permit me to illustrate the previous point with a specific link to the CofChrist “service and sermon helps” for the most recent Sunday of “ordinary time”. Yes, we use that term now to designate services when we are NOT engaged in a specific preparation for a general event on the Christian Calendar, such as Advent, Pentecost, or Easter, and on non-ordinary Sundays, things can be even more different than you described.

    Services are very dependent on cooperation among many parties to plan, choreograph, and execute, and if the part that is planned to speak to you doesn’t “work”, you feel left out. That happens a lot in small congregations, where you tend to be able to do a few things well, but not be able to do everything well.

    http://cofchrist.org/Worship10-11/111311.asp

    The service has a “kinetic demonstration” of the lesson. It has a talk stressing church financial priorities; it has multiple simultaneous administrations to the sick, with back-up recorded music. The guidance for the sermon will make it short by necessity — and the notion that administration is an ordinance does suggest that you would actually spend it preparing for the administrations.

    The previous Sunday might have an entirely different pattern.

    Please note that I’m not suggesting such a service, if planned and executed properly, would not be a deep spiritual experience. I am suggesting it looks a lot better from Independence when you’re putting together as a staff World Church minister than it looks in the field as self-sustaining lay ministers charged with MORE than worship for your people.

    There’s not anything unique to the church about this. You should see what Department of Energy field staff used to think about Department of Energy HQ initiatives. :D

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  16. PB on December 12, 2011 at 5:17 PM

    thanks for the link and info–had no idea COC services had changed so much. And I realized what I was referring to when asking what happened to the post about having a few minutes for different ‘groups’ within the congregation, came from your quote of your interview subject and not from someone’s post. : )

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  17. mark gibson on December 17, 2011 at 11:17 AM

    “…the alternative was the Restoration Branches…”

    My alternative, like the rest of my family and 6 other locals, was the LDS Church. While growing up I heard of many LDS becoming RLDS (but only knew one personally).

    Now that I’m LDS, members of the RLDS and its breakoff groups seem to totally reject the idea that the LDS might be closer to their beliefs/worship style than they think. My departed aunt said “Id rather be Catholic than Morman”.

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  18. FireTag on December 17, 2011 at 3:55 PM

    Mark:

    I, of course, am happy you got to where you felt you were supposed to go, but in earlier conversations elsewhere, didn’t you say there were no Restoration Branches in your part of the country, so that it wasn’t really an option for you?

    The RLDS fundamentalists in some areas, at least, have been able to create structures that are closer to their ideas of worship and mission than LDS would be, so they don’t have to choose between LDS and CofChrist options.

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  19. Darrell Webster Jr (Decon) on December 17, 2012 at 11:21 AM

    I have read the article and seem to not understand. I do not see much difference in the Restoration and the Remnant Churches. I am a member of the Restoration Church in Kirtland Ohio but have not had the opportunity to hear form the Remnant Church. After reading this article I now see the main differences. I only really see one. That is the chance that being part of the Remnant church could mean losing the buildings that the branches have worked hard to obtain. I personally feel that God is everywhere and buildings are just objects and we get caught up in the fact that a building defines us as a church. What defines us as a church is our faith in God not an object. I strongly feel that the split of the church C of C and Restoration was needed to show us that we do not need a building to worship God. It also showed us that no man not even a descendant of J.S. is perfect. Wallace W. Smith turned out to be a very selfish man and this was even more evident with his son Wally B. Smith. The wanted to be more accepted by the world churches and not be persecuted for their believe in the Book of Mormon. I think we all just need to get along and work together like the original saints did. If we follow what God intended for us then we will succeed in our goals to build Zion. Zion by the way starts in our hearts and our Faith in God.

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  20. Yolanda on March 15, 2013 at 6:08 AM

    I have testimony of Joseph smith and his son Joseph smith III …. I have been a member of the LDS church since 1985 and have enjoyed many spiritual witnesses, but some things didn’t seem right and just last year I researched about the RLDS church having also obtained a copy of church history and the memoirs of Joseph Smith III …

    I am glad to hear about this remnant church and I would like to know where I can attend church … I live near the LDS temple in London, England ….

    I look forward to hearing more!

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  21. FireTag on March 15, 2013 at 12:12 PM

    Yolanda:

    I’m a big believer in helping people be where they believe God is calling them to me. I do not know if the Remnant church is yet established in England; even the Community of Christ has only about 1000 members in the entire British Isles. If you give me permission, I will forward your e-mail to the appropriate individuals in EITHER organization for follow up as you wish. I don’t think my contacts in the LDS itself, however, are as meaningful as yours, so I can’t help you there.

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