Peddlers of Sin: Weekend Poll

By: wheatmeister
August 25, 2012

A few have criticized the City Creek Mall, not solely based on how the church invests money, but on the grounds that the mall is selling things that contradict Mormon practices.  How do you feel about selling or engaging in business practices that contradict our standards?

Which of the following do you feel Mormons should NOT sell or support through their business? (choose all that apply)

View Results

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Can you think of any others?

Discuss.

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38 Responses to Peddlers of Sin: Weekend Poll

  1. Bonnie on August 25, 2012 at 3:10 PM

    On my scale, some are certainly much more compromising than others. The greater the capacity of an activity to destroy lives, the more troublesome one’s involvement.

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  2. ji on August 25, 2012 at 3:41 PM

    Rather than asking about (and casting stones at) other Mormons, would be do better to ask ourselves what we would not do if we were business owners?

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  3. ji on August 25, 2012 at 3:59 PM

    I wouldn’t want to make my waitresses be scantily clad, but if I owned a restaurant I might have to consider selling coffee and booze as part of the trade. And if I owned a hotel, I might have to be open on Sunday and have R-rated movies available on the television, although I wouldn’t want to go beyond that.

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  4. Nick Literski on August 25, 2012 at 4:44 PM

    Mormons shouldn’t be selling wine, coffee, or caffienated teas. Not just for reasons of their faith, but because if they’ve been observant of the Word of Wisdom, they’ve no idea what the hell they’re doing. Why would I want advice on choosing a wine from someone who boasts of never letting a drop of alcohol pass their lips??

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  5. YvonneS on August 25, 2012 at 4:57 PM

    I didn’t see anyone dressed like the waitress in the photo at the top of this page when I was at the City Creek Mall earlier this month.

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  6. Mike S on August 25, 2012 at 5:27 PM

    This is an interesting poll. Specifically related to City Creek Center, we have:

    Tevana: A store specializing in teas that most active members would consider to be against the Word of Wisdom

    The Cheesecake Factory: Open on Sundays and also sells alcohol – perhaps a nice place to dine during General Conference weekend

    Texas de Brazil Churrascaria: Which “features extensive, glass-encased wine cellars, home to their collection of award-winning vintages and blends”

    Nearly 30 other stores: Which all sell things that wouldn’t be approved, such as bikinis, inappropriate dresses for 4-year-olds, outfits that would have have airbrushed cap sleeves if they were going to be shown in the Ensign, and completely banned at BYU campuses.

    The Marriott chains have made millions over the years selling adult-fims in their hotels. Numerous businessmen and developers here in Salt Lake hold prominent callings yet have extremely dishonest business practices.

    So, just about whatever you want to do, you’re covered. As long as you give 1% of your money to humanitarian causes, you’re fine.

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  7. hawkgrrrl on August 25, 2012 at 6:31 PM

    The poll creates an interesting hierarchy. I think Bonnie’s statement prevails. Interesting to note that nude art models rate the lowest (so far) – and yet are outlawed in BYU art classes, which undermines the credibility of a BYU art degree.

    Personally, I answered the poll based on the things I (as a Mormon) wouldn’t do rather than what I think other Mormons should do.

    I tend to agree with Nick that Mormons selling coffees, teas and wines (unless they also drink the same) are in the wrong field. Selling them as an accompaniment with a meal or hiring a sommelier for a Mormon-owned restaurant works, though. But I never accept responsibility for ordering the bottle of wine at a work dinner because even very casual drinkers of wine may not be great at picking a good bottle of wine – my knowledge doesn’t go far beyond white with chicken & fish, red with beef and lamb and asking if colleagues want a bottle for the table or to order by the glass.

    Mike S – Marriotts have pulled PPV porn out of their hotels, at least in the US. However, I did observe open prostitution poolside at the Marriott in Cebu, Philippines a few months ago. I suspect the Marriotts would object to that, but many of these overseas locations are franchised and probably not overseen very well.

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  8. SteveS on August 25, 2012 at 7:32 PM

    Is the question should the Church sell these things or permit such practices at places it owns, or is the question should Mormons themselves allow such things to go on at their own places of business? The Church owns the City Creek real estate, but lets a management company make all the decisions about occupancy, right? That’s probably how they get around the question of questionable wares for sale or business practices that violate sabbath observance, etc. Convoluted to be sure. But City Creek is not the BYU Bookstore.

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  9. Stephen R. Marsh on August 25, 2012 at 10:23 PM

    hawkgrrrl — good points.

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  10. Mike S on August 25, 2012 at 10:39 PM

    STeveS: The Church owns the City Creek real estate, but lets a management company make all the decisions about occupancy, right? That’s probably how they get around the question of questionable wares for sale or business practices that violate sabbath observance, etc.

    So, if I own a company but let my “manager” make decisions as to whether porn or alcohol or gambling or whatever is sold on my property, I’m good – right?

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  11. Ray on August 25, 2012 at 11:21 PM

    City Creek Mall was built to serve all the residents of SLC and all visitors to the city. It was an entire-community-focused investment, not a Mormon-member-focused investment. That, to me, makes it tremendously different than an individual who runs a company and can pick and choose the things that s/he sells.

    I have no problem whatsoever with any of the stores in the mall. I have a huge problem with the practices of lots of companies / businesses run my members. However, I voted “No” on only a few of the choices in the poll.

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  12. Ray on August 25, 2012 at 11:29 PM

    When I counted the choices just now, “a few” is a bit misleading. I checked nine of the top ten in the results and none of the rest. I didn’t check the one about an acting role, and I wouldn’t have even if it was the member who had a role that appeared naked – at least, not with only that description.

    There is nothing wrong with nudity itself, and the fact that I have to say that to a lot of members says something about the remnants of our society’s apostate, Puritanical heritage. Loathing for one extreme doesn’t warrant embrace of the other extreme.

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  13. NewlyHousewife on August 26, 2012 at 6:41 AM

    I voted against the tea and wine options simply because like Nick said they probably don’t know squat about the business they’re in.

    The porn magazine/porn site I checked because I have no feelings for the first half (If you own a gas station, you’re always going to be carrying porn. Same thing with movie rentals.) but the latter half is in bad taste for a family-oriented church (by the way, are there any non-family-oriented churches?).

    Anti-Mormon books, if it can get you excommunicated and you care about your recommend it shouldn’t matter if your name is on the cover or C. Lee’s.

    “Creative advertising” and lying to investors is high on my list of no-nos due to the whole honest with your fellow man clause in the interview.

    I think if it’s simply a part of the overall business (such as being in a sex scene when you’re a movie actor) it’s ok; but if it’s primarily your business (porn) it’s not. The second you start lying to investors however, it’s time to pull the plug.

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  14. Sherry on August 26, 2012 at 11:54 AM

    Which is maybe why the church shouldn’t have invested in the City Creek Mall to begin with, IMHO. Which is why I can’t bring myself to pay tithing any more, after being a tithe-payer for over forty years.

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  15. GBSmith on August 26, 2012 at 1:32 PM

    Ray

    “There is nothing wrong with nudity itself, and the fact that I have to say that to a lot of members says something about the remnants of our society’s apostate, Puritanical heritage. Loathing for one extreme doesn’t warrant embrace of the other extreme.”

    It would be nice if people would realize that nudity is not pornography. Making the human body bad with all the harm that goes with that is a plague that has done untold damage to people.

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  16. hawkgrrrl on August 26, 2012 at 6:09 PM

    “are there any non-family-oriented churches?” – Buddhism is an individual quest for enlightenment (not family-oriented), and the Buddha began his quest by leaving his wife and young son.
    - in Hinduism, only one of the four stages of life is built around family life. In older age, people may seek to reduce their ties to family and this world.
    - Quakers originally considered celibacy the highest form of discipline. Family was Plan B.

    Personally, though, I think humans are family-centric. It’s very hard for most people to follow practices that don’t include family life.

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  17. Hedgehog on August 26, 2012 at 10:52 PM

    Ray (#12) Well having seen the overall results previously (though I don’t seem to be getting them on this screen), for that question it looks like the ‘sex scene’ rather than the ‘nudity’ was the deciding factor for a fair few voters.
    I don’t think there is anything wrong with nudity, in and of itself, either. Who was it who raised the subject back in the garden after all…

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  18. graceforegrace on August 27, 2012 at 7:44 AM

    I chuckled a bit on comment #4 about Mormons not knowing what they’re doing selling coffee, booze, etc. That is probably more true than we realize!

    However, to piggy-back off of that comment, maybe the way they (the Mormon business owners) justify selling that stuff is by hiring non-Mormons or Jack Mormons to do the dirty work for them. Then they don’t have to accept total responsibility for selling the stuff and when asked if they participate in any of that in their dealings for a temple recommend interview they can say “No”.

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  19. SilverRain on August 27, 2012 at 10:35 AM

    Of course there’s nothing inherently wrong with nudity for the same reason there’s nothing inherently wrong with nonmembers touring the temple. It’s the appropriateness of time and place, and for me, that isn’t to display to the public now that I’m adult, and have been taught that my body is a sacred instrument.

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  20. Paula on August 27, 2012 at 2:11 PM

    I am a youth sunday school teacher in my Salt Lake ward, and one of the young women in my class asked me why the huge billboards advertising City Creek mall feature women in sleeveless dresses. I have to admit I did not have a good answer.

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  21. Frank Pellett on August 27, 2012 at 2:20 PM

    And why do the models all look like they stepped out of Twilight?

    Could it be that a Church that appears to have such stringent control over its message and members really doesnt have control over the marketing department of a mall they helped finance?

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  22. Douglas on August 27, 2012 at 2:36 PM

    Oh, criminy, more pathetic whining about the City Creek development…
    There are so many ways that virtually ANY business ventures or professions could pose a conflict with Gospel principles. Do you criticize Brothers Sikehama and Young (among many others) because they do their work on Sunday? This why D&C 58:26 – it is truly not good good to be commanded in ALL things. This is why we were given brains and the gift of the Holy Ghost; to make intelligent decisions based upon light and knowledge.
    As for City Creek, though we might nitpick about its finances or management, might it be that the Church wants to protect Temple Square and the Conference Center which holds high importance and isn’t exactly portable? In that light, it’s easy to criticize when you don’t have the responsibility.

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  23. Mike S on August 27, 2012 at 4:25 PM

    #20 Paula: I am a youth sunday school teacher in my Salt Lake ward, and one of the young women in my class asked me why the huge billboards advertising City Creek mall feature women in sleeveless dresses.

    Because there is NOTHING wrong with sleeveless dresses. We are not commanded to keep our shoulders covered. Period. Endowed members should keep the garment covered, but for unendowed members, as long as someone feels they are modest, they are.

    Unfortunately, some members have strained so far at gnats that they think 4-year-old girls shouldn’t wear sun dresses because in several decades they might be wearing garments. Things like this make all the rules the Pharisees had at the time of Christ look like nothing.

    We’ve gone crazy overboard in what it means to be “Mormon” and wonder why our membership rates are declining. We wonder why our youth are leaving in increasing numbers. We wonder why people think we’re a “peculiar” people.

    We need to return to a simple message – love Christ, love our neighbor.

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  24. Paula on August 27, 2012 at 4:55 PM

    Mike S., my comment didn’t reflect my thoughts very well. I’m in total agreement with your sentiments on modesty. My exchange with the young woman served to highlight for me how ridiculous this straining at gnats has become. However, I do think her question was a fair one given that she is repeatedly taught lessons similar to your sun dress example.

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  25. Will on August 27, 2012 at 4:55 PM

    “It would be nice if people would realize that nudity is not pornography”

    Then everyone in this blog should have no problem with posting nude pictures of themselves for the rest of us to see. Put your money where your mouth is and embed a nude pic of your self as your Gravatar.

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  26. Will on August 27, 2012 at 5:04 PM

    As for the City Creek development I am extremely grateful the church would have the means and guts to invest in this market. The fact is that 3 Billion dollar investment of non-taxpayer dollars saved the economy. It generated revenue for construction companies, real estate agents, real estate brokers, concrete suppliers, steel suppliers, masonry suppliers, nurseries, glass suppliers, and on and on and on and on to the tune of 3 Billion Dollars.

    What’s more, the church will have huge cash on cash return on this INVESTMENT. Investment money they can use to GROW. This sure beats bailing out failed companies. It sure beats the bankrupt welfare system of the US government. Again, I am extremely grateful the LDS church is financially stable SO that it CAN help the poor and needy.

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  27. Mike S on August 27, 2012 at 7:05 PM

    Will: As for the City Creek development I am extremely grateful the church would have the means and guts to invest in this market.

    I’ve never said it is or isn’t a great investment for a corporation. It’s just not what I would really like to see a CHURCH doing. And spare me the rhetoric about “non-sacred” funds – while profits from other investments might have been used for this business, they all started as donations to God at some point.

    And I’m not really sure why it took “guts”. The ultimate source of the money (ie. members) aren’t even allowed to question the use of tithing money (or profits made on prior tithing money) for commercial businesses that go against what the Church actually teaches. Bishop Burton spent billions of dollars on a commercial development – then was awarded a prize for it by the city and was rewarded with a job for UTA.

    And finally, the argument that the $3 billion ultimately went to all the people you name is weak. The money spent by the government is ALSO spent and pays grocers, landlords, auto dealers, etc.

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  28. GBSmith on August 27, 2012 at 7:23 PM

    Will

    “It would be nice if people would realize that nudity is not pornography”

    “Then everyone in this blog should have no problem with posting nude pictures of themselves for the rest of us to see. Put your money where your mouth is and embed a nude pic of your self as your Gravatar.”

    Now, now Will, you’re just being silly. A picture of me nude would definitely not be pornographic unless you’re into old, bald, bearded men. You really should consider chaste, social nudity. Most certainly not pornographic.

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  29. Anon on August 27, 2012 at 10:17 PM

    Can someone point me to some backup on some of these – are these all having to do with city creek? Not saying I don’t believe, but curious for various reasons….
    - Selling pornographic mags – where is this?
    - the nude models thing?
    - the anti books?
    - lottery?

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  30. hawkgrrrl on August 28, 2012 at 1:12 AM

    Anon – most of these items are not specifically related to City Creek, obviously (nude art models??). The question is a stand alone question for Mormons – how do people feel about members being involved in these business practices.

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  31. Julia on August 28, 2012 at 4:10 AM

    When giving my answers, I approached the questions from, “If I owned a company, what would I do?” I find it pretty hard to look at someone else’s company and judge every decision that is made. I do think owners need to “own” their decisions, instead of shuffling it off to people lower down to make the decisions about where the company is going, and how to implement those decisions.

    The poll asks about business that stay open for profit rather than necessity. The following paragraph is an excerpt from a paper that I wrote about reconciling legitimate business and essential services, the need for families to spend time together, and keeping the sabbath day holy. This section doesn’t deal much with the family time issues, so I tweaked the last paragraph of this part. (No reason to confuse everyone with applying my previous discussion that I am not including. :-) If anyone is interested in reading the whole project I can email it to you.)
    Certainly some businesses need to be open 24/7/365. I want the ER to be available on Sunday. Police/fire/ rescue can’t take a day off, if we want the communities we live in to be safe and protected. Hotels, nursing homes, pharmacies, airports and everything related to supporting travelers. They have a legitimate reason for being open and able to serve customers on the Sabbath.

    My personal gut check, when I am considering accepting a job, follows this general line:

    Are the things I will be asked to do legal?

    Are there parts of the job that make me uncomfortable, and if so, what are they and why don’t I feel comfortable about them?

    Is there anything I am being asked to do that would require moral gymnastics to justify doing that part of my job (or my whole job) if I was in a temple recommend interview?

    Will I be proud to tell my children about every aspect of the job?

    If the Savior popped in for a chat, are there any things I would try to avoid talking about or showing Him?

    I haven’t ever owned a company, but I have managed system groups and cross departmental project implementations. Sometimes I have had complete control over the group I was managing, including long term project deadlines and structure. Other times, a law specificly requires a business to have at least so many people available, or so many hours of contact. Depending on who your customers are and the nature of their business, they may require support 24/7/365 as part of the contract.

    For example, if you are an insurance carrier that has a Medicare contract, the law requires that you must have customer service for specific minimum times, and case managers and emergency medical reviews must be completed in less than two hours from the initial call. The people who work Sundays to fulfill contractual requirements, make up are a very small percentage of the employees.

    Most companies need to upgrade or change something that requires a company wide transition, every few years. Almost all transition projects needed to have a weekend component to implement. There are just some things you have to do, during a weekend, so the company doesn’t have to be “down” during the business week. Most companies who schedule mass transitions require about half of the employees to work weekends, including the Sundays until the transition is done.

    I inherited several projects that were close enough to implementation that I couldn’t change any of the schedules. For the new projects that I had from start to finish, I was able to use my experience with tight project focus and group box schedules to make sure that no one was working on a Sunday that they didn’t have to.

    If you start out with the twin goals of bringing a project on time and under budget, as well as keeping Sunday work to a minimum, it then comes down to prep work. Having a well mapped out plan, that is coordinated and signed off with all of the departments involved, allows the entire company to buy in to the plan and timelines.

    I think that applies to most of life. Planning ahead, with the gospel standards that you want in your life as a constant priority, leads to fewer last minute “emergencies.” I think those same ideas can apply to a lot of the high vote getting ideas.

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  32. Mormoncowboy@hotmail.com on August 28, 2012 at 7:38 AM

    The City Creek Mall was a good investment only if we ask that question in a vacuum. If I was investing a REIT, then this is the kind of thing that would impress me. It however, begs the question of what a Church is doing with this much discretionary income, and even more how this directly translates into the stated mission of the Church. After all, it is the mission and purpose of the Church that motivates people to pay tithes and offerings…and then we build malls??

    As for the question of what should the Church be doing? Well I suppose if we don’t care of them accumulating far more than “sufficient for their needs”, and being a non-profit, operating for-profits, then why should we care if they sell products that contradict their teachings? They scuttled Jesus’s teaching on money a long time ago. At a bare minimum, if they began “distributing” wine, that would at least carry some corallary to what Jesus said and did.

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  33. Douglas on August 30, 2012 at 1:41 PM

    Post a nude pic of myself b/c we don’t consider nudity to be porn? Then CNN will post one of two news stories: “LDS female bloggers worldwide swoon”, or, ” multiple human-sized wall cutouts in homes of LDS bloggers.” And unlike the infamous RM beefcake calendar, we won’t kill any trees.
    Nope, too bashful…sorry!

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  34. Mike S on August 30, 2012 at 5:21 PM

    In Buddhism, one of the precepts of the Eight-fold path (fundamental tenets) is Right Livelihood. The concept is that we should make our living doing ethical things that are good for our communities and which don’t violate our beliefs. And this doesn’t necessarily mean “legal”, as there are many “legal” things which are not ethical. For example, a true Buddhist wouldn’t sell alcohol, wouldn’t sell weapons, etc. But even more importantly, they should specifically do things which have the greatest benefit to others.

    In contrast, it is interesting the compromises we make as LDS members to justify what we do in business. As I listed in comment #6, even the Church itself supports businesses that are directly against its own teachings. For years, Marriott made money on porn (since removed). And the number of mental hoops we jump through to justify our business dealing is staggering.

    For example, even Mitt Romney made much of his money doing things that I personally find unethical, although quite legal. These financial maneuverings are based on greed. They don’t build communities, jobs, or anything else. Here is an example from recent article:

    In a typical private-equity fragging, Bain put up a mere $18 million to acquire KB Toys and got big banks to finance the remaining $302 million it needed. Less than a year and a half after the purchase, Bain decided to give itself a gift known as a “dividend recapitalization.” The firm induced KB Toys to redeem $121 million in stock and take out more than $66 million in bank loans – $83 million of which went directly into the pockets of Bain’s owners and investors, including Romney. “The dividend recap is like borrowing someone else’s credit card to take out a cash advance, and then leaving them to pay it off,” says Heather Slavkin Corzo, who monitors private equity takeovers as the senior legal policy adviser for the AFL-CIO.

    Bain ended up earning a return of at least 370 percent on the deal, while KB Toys fell into bankruptcy, saddled with millions in debt. KB’s former parent company, Big Lots, alleged in bankruptcy court that Bain’s “unjustified” return on the dividend recap was actually “900 percent in a mere 16 months.” Patnode, by contrast, was fired in December 2008, after almost four decades on the job. Like other employees, he didn’t get a single day’s severance…

    …there’s absolutely no way to look at what Bain did at KB and see anything but a cash grab – one that followed the business model laid out by Romney. Rather than cutting costs and tightening belts, Bain added $300 million in debt to the firm’s bottom line while taking out more than $120 million in cash – an outright looting that creditors later described in a lawsuit as “breaking open the piggy bank.” What’s more, Bain smoothed the deal in typical fashion by giving huge bonuses to the company’s top managers as the firm headed toward bankruptcy. CEO Michael Glazer got an incredible $18.4 million, while CFO Robert Feldman received $4.8 million and senior VP Thomas Alfonsi took home $3.3 million.

    While there are many things I like about Romney, I’m not impressed by his quarter of a billion in wealth. There are certainly many people who look at him googly-eyed and who see nothing wrong with the financial games people play on Wall Street, but they ultimately have caused economic misery for millions of Americans so people like Romney could amass more money than they could ever spend.

    Legal? Yep.
    Ethical? Nope.

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  35. Julia on August 30, 2012 at 5:48 PM

    Mike,

    I think that is the part that leaves me wondering when people say they know his heart is really with the people because he was a Stake President at one time.

    One of my friends married into a family whose “patriarch” was once a bishop and stake president. Apparently the jury that found him guilty of massive fraud and tax evasion weren’t swayed by that. (Two of the years that the indictment covered were his last two as Stake President.) His crimes were only in the two million range. I guess you have to take a lot more to buy law makers who will pass laws to make your actions legal.

    Julia
    poetrysansonions.blogspot.com

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  36. rbc on August 31, 2012 at 7:59 AM

    @26, For the last month or so our Bishop has been asking the local members to up their fast offerings b/c the local coffers are running dry in these tough economic times. If your absurd argument were true, then why doesn’t my Bishop just call SLC and ask for a little extra from that river of cash being generated by City Creek Mall to help the poor and needy in SE Pennsylvania? It seem we need the help now, during challenging economic times, but a couple billion dollars, of which the Church had access to, has been parked in a mall in downtown SLC while local saints are struggling to pay their rent or put food on the table. That’s one hell of a way to help the poor and needy. What’s more, TBMs like me who already donate about a week’s worth of grocery money for fast offerings are now reluctant to kick in a little more as we cast our gaze to SLC to see how the Brethren manage their extra money in the face of so many needy Saints.

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  37. Cowboy on August 31, 2012 at 1:12 PM

    I’ve said this before, but a simple test try and literally visualize the popular WWJD. If he were to physically take over as CEO of the Church, would he see the necessity in the City Creek Mall? Would he be willing to sell “vices”? Would he be busy operating business’s and a massive corporate/financial empire? Would he even be interested in having employees?

    I can say that the New Testament Jesus that I envision would probably not do most of those things. Given that, what more needs to be said????

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  38. Geoff - A on September 1, 2012 at 7:52 AM

    Mike S @ 34. After reading this I am concerned how Romney as Prsident might ballance the budget. Perhaps by taking over rich countries and stripping their wealth.

    It also seems strange that the candidate who spends most on his campaign can also credibly claim to champion small government?

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