You Don’t have to be Perfect to Receive Revelation from God

By: Guest
September 2, 2012

This is the first post from Grace for Grace.  He runs his own blog with the same name.

In Elder’s Quorum last Sunday, one comment stood out to me.  The elder in our group shared an experience where he felt that as long as we are doing “all the right things” we will be in the position to receive revelation from God.  According to him, the “right” things included going to church, reading scripture daily, praying, and trying to be perfect essentially in word and deed.

I argued that while doing those things is good, God can and will give revelation to anyone based on how He views them and feels that they will respond after the revelation is given and received.

Paul on the Road to Damascus

We see in the scriptures (i.e. Paul in the Bible, Alma in the Book of Mormon) where people who were complete sinners who were in complete rebellion towards God.  Yet they received revelations in the form of visions from God.  These examples blow the theory out of the water that we need to be doing  all the “right” things to receive revelation.  Once they received the revelation, they opened their hearts completely to God and were humbled.

I shared a personal example of when I was off track and in rebellion towards God and received a dramatic revelation that changed my life.  This is the main reason why I attend the Church.

To be fair to my friend in Elder’s Quorum, I have also received revelation when I was doing all the “right” things such as praying, scripture study, church attendance, etc. and I do think that when we are trying to tune our lives in with God, we will be doing those things.  However, some people who haven’t experienced communication from God are also entitled to revelation from God and God will choose who He wants to reveal truth to.  Just because we are doing all the “right” things doesn’t necessarily guarentee that we will receive revelation.

What are your experiences with receiving and recognizing revelation?

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26 Responses to You Don’t have to be Perfect to Receive Revelation from God

  1. Mike S on September 2, 2012 at 8:21 AM

    I certainly understand your teacher’s sentiment, but I have to agree with you. I don’t know that “doing all the right things” necessarily implies “revelation from God”. There are several weaknesses in this argument:

    1) As you mentioned, there are many examples of people who were NOT going the right things, who received more profound revelation than many of the faithful members of the Church have ever received.

    2) There are many people who ARE “going to church, reading scripture daily, praying, and trying to be perfect essentially in word and deed” who do NOT feel like they receive ANY revelation from God.

    3) And there are orders of magnitude higher numbers of people OUTSIDE the LDS Church who feel they receive revelation from God/the Divine, making the “going to church” requirement (with the assumption it is an LDS Church) somewhat suspect.

    I do think that when we are living good lives, that God/the Divine/whatever term someone feels comfortable using can resonate with us much more – but it is by no means as simplistic as we often teach. God will give revelation whenever He seems fit.

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  2. Stephen M (Ethesis) on September 2, 2012 at 8:51 AM

    Indeed, God is not a vending machine, though much of revelation has to do with whether or not we will respond to it and what we need to respond to.

    Most people who are “doing everything right” do not have responses needed.

    Many who are not, are not because they already not responding and do not plan to respond.

    But, that does not mean God is or will be silent.

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  3. Stephen M (Ethesis) on September 2, 2012 at 10:33 AM

    http://bycommonconsent.com/2012/09/02/midterm-providence-the-story-of-leroy/ is a great story to go with this post.

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  4. Howard on September 2, 2012 at 11:27 AM

    God speaks to anyone who will listen but they have to learn how to hear which makes the “right things” list quite different from the church’s Santa Clause list and much closer to David O. McKay’s Personal practice of early morning meditation.

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  5. Ray on September 2, 2012 at 2:08 PM

    I wrote the following yesterday on my personal blog about how Mormonism defines “scripture”. We tend in the Church to downplay our own definitions in our natural attempt to claim unique access to the word of God.

    “Scripture: What Does It Mean? – or, I Love the Ambiguity within Mormonism”

    http://thingsofmysoul.blogspot.com/2012/09/scripture-what-does-it-mean-or-i-love.html

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  6. Julia on September 2, 2012 at 2:53 PM

    It seems like this is something a number of people are thinking about this week. I am glad that as we share our stories with other, we can help others who are struggling, but we also can have it be a reminder to us, individually, of prior experiences. I know that as I share my experiences with others, my mind and spirit again are fed by that past experience.

    For two other posts about this:

    This is from my personal blog – http://poetrysansonions.blogspot.com/2012/08/when-did-i-serve-you-remember.html?m=0

    And this is from Keepa (Thank You Ardis!) – http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2010/02/28/in-our-ward-teachings-for-our-times-acquiring-and-recognizing-spiritual-guidance/comment-page-1/#comment-259123

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  7. Bonnie on September 2, 2012 at 3:54 PM

    Interesting. I just taught a gospel doctrine lesson focusing on the experiences the Lamanites had as Nephi and Lehi were miraculously freed from prison. The voice that spoke to them from heaven validated why they were receiving these things. If you read the verses, however, there is not a significant amount of time for them to have proven themselves. They were commanded to repent (which really means to turn to God and trust him, not that you’re a sorry sack of sinfulness), the walls fell down, the prophets were freed, an old dissenter notices the prophets transfigured, the crowd asks how to get the darkness to go away, and he tells them they must repent, pray, and have faith. They prayed, the cloud was dispersed, and they began a process of conversion.

    No earthly rhyme nor reason for such a dramatic set of events. Was it because they were all the way back in the land of Nephi and far from regular missionary jaunts from Zarahemla? Was it because they were only *this* far from believing and needed only the experience? Was it because Nephi and Lehi were just that cool? We don’t know. As Stephen says, God is not a vending machine.

    There have been plenty of times that I wanted desperately and needed heavenly guidance and the heavens were quiet. I always found that the doors that needed to open did, when it was time, and the Lord didn’t feel the need to tell me he was about to take care of things. Other times they came because, in looking back, I really needed it and nothing else would have sufficed.

    So, I trust him to send what I need when I need it, and press on when the heavens are silent. And I never, ever judge my own or someone else’s righteousness by the degree of shaking earth we experience. Good action may bring blessings, but doesn’t guarantee earthly rewards. That was the message Job learned.

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  8. Jared on September 2, 2012 at 4:30 PM

    #7 Bonnie

    The Book of Mormon provides an answer why the Lamanites who were preparing to kill Nephi and Lehi were converted.

    “Behold, it was the faith of Nephi and Lehi that wrought the change upon the Lamanites, that they were baptized with fire and with the Holy Ghost” (Ether 12:14).

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  9. Bonnie on September 2, 2012 at 5:01 PM

    Oh, I know, Jared. But what does that really mean? Does it mean that Nephi and Lehi were led to them at the appropriate time for their faith to invite that miracle? What does reading that scripture mean for parents who have painfully taught and exerted their faith and their children have not responded? I agree that the scripture outlines an incredible impact from the faithfulness of two heroes, but I think there is a larger story to tell about responding to a complex of inspirations with a lifetime of sacrifice and turning the timing over to God. If we could exert amazing faith and tread on someone’s freedom to choose, we’d have prophets running amok faithing people into obedience.

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  10. Ray on September 2, 2012 at 5:29 PM

    #8 – So did Elijah lack the type of faith Nephi and Lehi had? Did Alma and Amulek lack that kind of faith? Did Noah lack that kind of faith? Did Job lack that kind of faith? Do missionaries who labor diligently in difficult areas and never see people baptized lack that kind of faith? Do Branch members in units that get closed due to lack of growth simply lack sufficient faith?

    The answer has to be more than just “those who taught had amazing faith” – especially given how many times in our scriptures those who are said to have had incredible faith didn’t see the same blessings as are recounted concerning Nephi and Lehi in that instance.

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  11. Jared on September 2, 2012 at 10:32 PM

    I suggest that we turn to the Book of Mormon to answer the question Bonnie and Ray ask.

    When the Lord provides His followers with repeated examples of something, I think His followers should pay special attention. In the following three examples I believe the position faith plays is clearly taught.

    1. The Book of Mormon describes Alma and the four sons of Mosiah as “the vilest of sinners” on one page (Mosiah 28:4) and a few pages later refers to them as holy prophets of God (Alma 10:7; 20:15).

    Alma and the four sons of Mosiah were busy seeking to destroy the church of God. This all came to a sudden halt when an angel appeared to them. Even though the angel spoke directly to Alma, those who were with him joined in the experience. They all fell to the earth in astonishment. Alma “became dumb, that he could not open his mouth, yea, and became weak…carried helpless” and laid before his father. Two days later, when Alma regained his strength, he testified, “I have repented of my sins, and have been redeemed of the Lord; behold I am born of the Spirit”. (Mosiah 27:19, 24).

    Why did the Lord send an angel to these young apostates that resulted in Alma’s conversion? The Book of Mormon answers this question:

    And again, the angel said: Behold, the Lord hath heard the prayers of his people, and also the prayers of his servant, Alma, who is thy father; for he has prayed with much faith concerning thee that thou mightest be brought to the knowledge of the truth; therefore, for this purpose have I come to convince thee of the power and authority of God, that the prayers of his servants might be answered according to their faith (Mosiah 27:14).

    The angel came because of the prayers and faith of his people, and Alma’s father, who prayed with much faith.

    2. The Book of Mormon describes the Lamanites as being a wild and ferocious people who delighted in murdering the Nephites (Alma 17:14-15). For example, King Lamoni would kill his servants if they allowed his flocks to be scattered (Alma 17:27-29).

    The four sons of Mosiah, like Alma, also experienced the mighty change and became servants of the Lord. They desired to teach the Lamanites and so they plead with their father many days for permission to impart the word of God to their brethren, the Lamanites. King Mosiah inquired of the Lord and received a promise they would be delivered out of the hands of the Lamanites (Mosiah 28:1-9).

    The Book of Mormon details the first conversion of a Lamanite. Ammon, one of the sons of Mosiah became a servant to king Lamoni. He won the kings confidence when he miraculously defended the kings flocks. The king was astonished at Ammon’s power thinking that he must be more than a man. Ammon used this opportunity to teach the gospel to King Lamoni. King Lamoni believing the words of Ammon prayed saying:

    O Lord, have mercy; according to thy abundant mercy which thou hast had upon the people of Nephi, have upon me, and my people.
    And now, when he had said this, he fell unto the earth, as if he were dead. Alma 18:41-42

    After some time passed, Lamoni arose and declared:

    “I have seen my Redeemer; and he shall come forth, and be born of a woman, and he shall redeem all mankind who believe on his name.” Alma 19:13

    Lamoni had seen a vision of the Lord’s coming, the Lord poured out his Spirit on Lamoni and his houshold to the extent that “their hearts had been changed; that they had no more desire to do evil” (Alma 19:33, 36). Those who believed were baptized, and a church was established among them (Alma 19:35-36).

    Why did the Lord pour out his Spirit on the Lamanites beginning with king Lamoni and his household? The Book of Mormon answers this question:

    “Behold, it was the faith of Ammon and his brethren which wrought so great a miracle among the Lamanites” (Ether 12:15).

    3. In the 5th chapter of Helaman two sons of Helaman, Nephi and Lehi, are having great success teaching the gospel to the Nephites and Lamanites. While traveling to the land of Nephi they were taken by an army of the Lamanites and cast into prison. After being held in prison for many days, the Lamanites decided to slay them. But when they came for them, Nephi and Lehi were “encircled about with a pillar of fire, and that it burned them not”. The Lamanites, and dissenters from the Nephites were astonished. While Nephi and Lehi were surround by a pillar of fire they were overshadowed by a cloud of darkness. They also heard the voice of the Lord telling them to repent. One of the Nephites, Aminadab, who once belonged to the church of God, told those who were witnessing this event, nearly three hundred souls:

    “You must repent, and cry unto the voice, even until ye shall have faith in Christ, who was taught unto you by Alma, and Amulek, and Zeezrom; and when ye shall do this, the cloud of darkness shall be removed from overshadowing you” (Helaman 5:41).

    When they did as Aminadab said the cloud of darkness was dispersed and they were all encircled about by a pillar of fire.

    “And behold, the Holy Spirit of God did come down from heaven, and did enter into their hearts, and they were filled as if with fire, and they could speak forth marvelous words” (Helaman 5:45).

    Why did the Lord pour out his Spirit on men who were prepared to kill Nephi and Lehi? Again, the Book of Mormon answers this question:

    “Behold, it was the faith of Nephi and Lehi that wrought the change upon the Lamanites, that they were baptized with fire and with the Holy Ghost” (Ether 12:14).

    Why would people described as vile sinners and wild and ferocious murders be blessed with marvelous conversion experiences?

    The answer is the same for each of the three accounts: Heavenly Father answers the prayers of righteous parents, missionaries, and any one who exercises faith.

    “Faith is a principle of action and of power, and by it one can command the elements and/or heal the sick, or influence any number of circumstances when occasion warrants (Jacob 4:4–7). Even more important, by faith one obtains a remission of sins and eventually can stand in the presence of God.” Bible Dictionary

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  12. Ray on September 2, 2012 at 11:00 PM

    So, your answer, Jared, is that Elijah, Noah and Job lacked faith – as do all missionaries who don’t see lots of baptisms as a result of their missions and all members who also don’t see lots of baptisms. I understand. Thanks for the response.

    I prefer to see Elijah, Noah and Job as men of faith and the LDS Church’s statement about faith and successful missions found in “Preach My Gospel”.

    We obviously see this differently, so there’s no point in either of us belaboring our points.

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  13. Ray on September 2, 2012 at 11:04 PM

    Oh, and all parents who pray for their children without seeing change in those children also lack faith.

    The natural extension is that anyone who fails to be healed (and other logical conclusions from the premise) also lacks faith.

    No thanks.

    Now I’m done.

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  14. Bonnie on September 3, 2012 at 7:08 AM

    Jared, you make a beautiful case for the fact that faith MUST be present for miracles to occur. I don’t think anyone would argue that point with you. The issue is that faith is part of a complex of forces that bring about miracles: the willingness of other participants in the drama to experiment upon faith, the will of God and the larger designs of the moment, etc. “God will force no man to heaven.” We cannot run over the cardinal freedom of agency in every individual, no matter how much faith one player may bring.

    To overemphasize any of the forces that bring about the intervention of God is to twist God’s relationships to us in a profoundly hurtful way, and threatens its own kind of apostasy.

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  15. Jared on September 3, 2012 at 8:55 AM

    Ray-please, relax. :-)

    Bonnie and Ray-

    I’m not debating or trying to be an authority . I would like to learn along with you. When I saw Bonnie’s #7 I recalled the verses of scripture in Ether.

    I suggest looking to the scriptures for help when seeking an answer to questions. so often in the Bloggernacle scriptures are left out of gospel discussions (is that an oxymoron?).

    I think the Book of Mormon clearly teaches that because of the faith of people like Alma the younger and older (and local church members), the sons of Mosiah, and Nephi and Lehi the Lord will show forth miracles to unbelievers.

    As can be seen from the above examples, miracles have power to convenience those with hard hearts to believe in Jesus Christ, repent, be baptized, and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost (Nn two of the three examples above, they were baptized after they received the Holy Ghost. Apparently the order of the first principles can be altered when necessary).

    What does the Book of Mormon teach about the agency of those who observe great miracles?

    Were all of Alma and the sons of Mosiah’s former friends and associates converted when they told of their conversion experience?

    Were all of the Lamanites converted by the sons of Mosiah?

    Were all of those who were going to kill Nephi and Lehi converted?

    I won’t take the time and space to go into detail, but I will leave a few verses of scripture that answer the questions I just asked.

    Mosiah 27:32-37

    Alma 19:32, Alma 23:14

    Helaman 5:42-43, Helaman 5:49-52

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  16. Ray on September 3, 2012 at 12:36 PM

    Jared, I’m saying this with a smile on my face:

    My problem is not believing that faith can produce miracles. I believe that passionately and have experienced it personally. I get it.

    My problem is the logical extension of that principle to every situation – which is why I asked the original questions I asked about other people **in our scriptures** who are said to have had GREAT faith but didn’t see the same miraculous results. I was being totally sincere when I asked how you would address those situations – and your answer was to quote more scriptures that made it appear like you believe it’s all about the level of faith. That answer led me to conclude that you must see Elijah, Noah, Job, etc. as lacking Nephi’s and Lehi’s level of faith – since that was the exact question you “answered”.

    Again, I’m not arguing that faith doesn’t produce miracles. I’m asking if you really believe the non-occurrence of such miracles means a lack of faith. I’m asking directly if you believe Elijah, Noah, Job, many sincere people now, etc. don’t see that sort of miracle specifically because they lack the type of faith attributed to Nephi and Lehi.

    Finally, on a personal note, I used the scriptures in my question to you. I didn’t “quote” scriptures in this case, because I assumed you knew the scriptural stories to which I was referring and didn’t need to quote from them. I quote scriptures regularly in the Bolggernacle, so please stop insinuating I don’t when you are talking with me – and please don’t lump me in with whomever you feel doesn’t quote scripture enough when you actually are responding to me. You’ve done it in the past; please don’t do it in the future. Please respond to me and what I write when you are addressing what I write, not a generalized caricature / amalgamation of Bloggernacle participants.

    Again, that’s typed with a smile, but it’s typed in all seriousness.

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  17. NOT SAYING TODAY on September 4, 2012 at 2:14 AM

    My problem with this discussion is that it is not talking about the here and now.
    It is quite difficult to go to testimony meeting every month and hear all and sundry say they know…

    I have been active for 50 years, have been on bishoprics, have been a temple worker, and am not aware of having any spiritual contact from God.

    Obviously there have been times when I have prayed, and fasted for some confirmation…nothing.

    I did have a financial problem a few years ago, prayed in the temple, thought I was told to pay tithing in advance and what I required would come to pass. I did my part and nothing has happened yet.

    It is verry difficult to continue to believe when it appears that whatever I do there is no response from above. To some extent I accept the testimonies of others. d

    He can talk to good people, he can talk to bad people, why can’t he talk to me?

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  18. Chad on September 4, 2012 at 8:40 AM

    I completely agree with you!! If we were so myopic and only believed that truly righteous people received revelation, no one would. We are all sinners and it doesn’t matter if we sin a “little or a lot”. We are all sinners. I hate Mormons who think they are the only one than “commune” with Our Lord. Good people, LDS or not, get revelation!!

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  19. Bonnie on September 4, 2012 at 12:45 PM

    NOT SAYING TODAY: My father felt exactly the same way most of his life. He was always a little wistful that personal visitations were not his gift. I often came home from work as a teen just before 2AM and he had just come in from second shift work and was settled at the kitchen table reading gospel books or his scriptures. He studied and he served, he ensured that our family went to church and had prayers, but he never heard words or saw an angel or had any experience that he couldn’t have easily chalked up to himself. But he never charged God foolishly (I’m not suggesting that you or anyone else has, just pulling in the Job reference.) Each of us has our own trials, as well as gifts.

    I think the idea that God answers prayers is a fundamental to faith, and one important enough that we return repeatedly to it throughout our lives. I’ve seen untold numbers of prayers answered in myriad ways, and still I wonder how this or that prayer will be answered. My personal answer is that it’s the struggle to feel, hear, and interpret the word of God that guarantees that we will continue to live so to hear.

    I feel for you. Even as much as I truly have felt the thinness of the veil, sometimes the heavens are as silent as if it were a brick wall. Elder Scott indicated that in those times he simply has faith in us, and my experience is that the door will open when it’s time whether or not he tells me about it beforehand. God bless.

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  20. Jared on September 4, 2012 at 3:30 PM

    Hi Ray-

    Yesterday, I went to the mountains with my family and now that I am back at work I am finally getting caught up enough to respond to your comment.

    You asked: “Again, I’m not arguing that faith doesn’t produce miracles. I’m asking if you really believe the non-occurrence of such miracles means a lack of faith. I’m asking directly if you believe Elijah, Noah, Job, many sincere people now, etc. don’t see that sort of miracle specifically because they lack the type of faith attributed to Nephi and Lehi.”

    We taught that Nephi and Lehi’s faith produced the miracle of conversion for the Lamanites when they were obedient.

    I believe that Elijah, Noah, and Job were as faithful in their day as was Nephi and Lehi were in their day.

    The reason I believe this ways is that there is no scripture I’m aware that says or implies differently. They were prophets who I assume were as faithful in their callings and missions as were Nephi and Lehi.

    With that said, I don’t think we can assume that everyone is as true and faithful as they were. I believe that some spirits who come to this earth in our day and age have specific callings or missions the Lord prepared them to accomplish and that many fall short of their faith potential. This appears to be true for both our first and second estates.

    I’m not referring to just church leaders. All of those who seek to know God will be blessed.

    Joseph Smith taught:

    “Because faith is wanting, the fruits are. No man since the world was had faith without having something along with it. The ancients quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, women received their dead, etc. By faith the worlds were made. [See Hebrews 11:3, 34–35.] A man who has none of the gifts has no faith; and he deceives himself, if he supposes he has. Faith has been wanting, not only among the heathen, but in professed Christendom also, so that tongues, healings, prophecy, and prophets and apostles, and all the gifts and blessings have been wanting.”

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  21. Heber13 on September 4, 2012 at 4:28 PM

    I think we define what revelation is to us, what the voice of God is telling us. It is rarely an objective interpretation of events, including all the scriptural accounts.

    To Jared’s point…if we are striving to live holy, we are more likely to be searching for those revelations.

    For example, one day of tracting while on my mission was pretty boring and tedious. To liven things up, I challenged my companion to see who could find the most rubber bands. As we walked from door to door, I was surprised I was able to find about 12 rubber bands along that street that day (of course, beating my companion’s 4 rubber bands because I was more faithful…or so I boasted to him in fun).

    The point I remember learning was that when you look for it, you’re more likely to find it. But it doesn’t change the universe and create more rubber bands to be found…they are still there on the ground…you just walk by them when you’re not fixated on finding them. (Too bad we weren’t as fixated on finding people to teach that day? oops).

    In my experience, God will give revelation in various forms, in various places, to various people inside and outside the Church…according to His will and His vision of what His children need.

    It helps when we are trying to be holy so we can see what is there for us to learn, but we don’t control God’s will by our righteousness. Parents will lose children. Missionaries will sometimes not baptize. People who receive priesthood blessings will sometimes die of cancer. It rains on the just and unjust alike. And blessings (such as wealth and revelation) come to the just and unjust alike, so they are given to choose to see the revelation and heed it or not.

    But when my son is starting 4th grade, and I give a father’s blessing he will make new friends, and he uses his faith to take courage and speak to new kids on the playground…we can choose to call the rubber bands we find revelation in our daily lives, and you can never prove it, but I believe it can be uplifting to us to recognize it and heed it, regardless of what happens or doesn’t happen to others.

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  22. Jared on September 4, 2012 at 4:47 PM

    Heber 13

    Can you refer your readers to scripture and/or the teachings of the living prophets to support what you’re teaching about revelation?

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  23. Heber13 on September 4, 2012 at 7:43 PM

    #22: Jared, I’m not sure what part of my comments you’re referring to, so please clarify your question if you’d like more.

    But the heart of my point is that we must search for revelation, or we may miss it when it is given to us…all of us, anyone who seeks to find. Answers are there, the prophets and apostles try to help us learn how to learn and recognize revelations…so it takes effort for us to seek to find them (and ponder and make sense of them).

    Here are some teachings around this principle:

    Matthew 5:45
    That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

    Matthew 7:7-8
    7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
    8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

    “Prayer is a gift of our Father in Heaven to every soul.

    You are asked to look for an answer to your prayers. Obey the Master’s counsel to “study it out in your mind” (D&C 9:8). Often you will think of a solution; as you seek confirmation that your answer is right, help will come.”
    -Elder RG Scott, July 2012 Ensign

    “Brothers and sisters, as good as our previous experience may be, if we stop asking questions, stop thinking, stop pondering, we can thwart the revelations of the Spirit. Remember, it was the questions young Joseph asked that opened the door for the restoration of all things. We can block the growth and knowledge our Heavenly Father intends for us. How often has the Holy Spirit tried to tell us something we needed to know but couldn’t get past the massive iron gate of what we thought we already knew?”
    Pres Uchtdorf, Worldwide Leadership Training

    “The Lord has counseled us directly in this dispensation to seek the Spirit—to learn much—that we might “lay aside the things of this world, and seek for the things of a better” (D&C 25:10). I feel strongly that this is a clarion call for the women of this church at this time. For us to stand firm and faithful, we must be clearly focused on seeking the Lord.

    Seeking implies so much more than merely looking. Seek means energy, direction, passion, purpose. To seek requires all our “heart, might, mind and strength” (D&C 4:2). We sisters are good at using our hearts and our hands in the Lord’s work. But we must also use our minds. More than one hundred years ago, Relief Society President Emmeline B. Wells said, “I believe in women, especially thinking women” (“Why, Ah! Why” Woman’s Exponent, vol. 3, Oct. 1, 1874, p. 67). So do I.

    How do we seek with our minds? With our intellect we can ponder, we can analyze our circumstances, we can sort and sift information, weigh our options; we can store ideas, we can draw conclusions from our experiences, find answers to our problems; we can treasure thoughts and receive revelation. Isn’t that what the Lord meant when he said, “You must study it out in your mind” and then ask me if these things are not true? (D&C 9:8.)”
    -Sister Elaine Jack

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  24. Jared on September 4, 2012 at 7:56 PM

    #23 Heber 13

    I understand your point now. Thanks for all the work you put into providing scriptures and quotes. I enjoyed reading them.

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  25. Ray on September 4, 2012 at 10:40 PM

    “The reason I believe this way is that there is no scripture I’m aware that says or implies differently. They were prophets who I assume were as faithful in their callings and missions as were Nephi and Lehi.”

    Thank you for that direct answer. It appears that we both believe measurable results are not an automatic indicator of faith and righteousness.

    “With that said, I don’t think we can assume that everyone is as true and faithful as they were.”

    Nobody in this thread has made that claim. Again, it appears we agree with each other about that.

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  26. Hedgehog on September 7, 2012 at 3:46 AM

    School holidays over, and I’m catching up.

    Whole-heartedly agree with the sentiment of the post.

    Don’t think I’d put Paul and Alma the Younger in the same basket though. I thought the point about Paul was that he was very religious and devout, believing he was doing what God wanted, but on the wrong path. Alma the Younger a rebellious and wayward youth.

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